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  #21  
Old March 24th, 2021, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Then you need tachyons, since the escape velocity at the event horizon is the speed of light, you need something that exceeds that velocity to escape a black hole, or else you need dark energy.
What is dark energy? One form of it is photons that carry negative amounts of energy, they travel at the speed of light just like regular photons do, and be emitting dark energy, you actually gain energy, and whatever absorbs these dark photons loses energy, and in fact a dark photon is just a reverse time regular photon traveling backwards in time.
Nope - no tachyons, they have also been disproved.
Go and study Hawking radiation rather than making up pseudoscience.

Here is the PBS spacetime video on the subject to get you started:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPKj0YnKANw

Dark photons? Interesting idea, where is the paper on them... ah, they are a totally hypothetical interaction between dark matter, so nothing to do with negative mass or energy.

as to regular photons being negative energy carriers - nope.
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Old March 24th, 2021, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Adam Dray View Post
Hawking radiation is the stripping of half of a virtual particle.
That's a common simplification of the process, yes.
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Is there something equating virtual particles with negative matter? I don't think so.
Not that I can find in the physics literature I have access to. Negative matter is entirely a mathematical hypothesis and has no experimental or observational data to suggest it can even exist in our universe.
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The virtual particle is positive matter, just "virtual" on account of the Uncertainty Principle eschewing the zero-point, right?
Yup, right
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Old March 24th, 2021, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by whulorigan View Post
For the case in question, the virtual particle-pair creation occurs just above the event horizon, where one of the pair falls past the horizon, and the other escapes.
There are two possibilities with virtual particle pairs. In one case the positive particle escape and the negative one gets swallowed by the black hole, the positive particle could be a photon or elementary particle and that is what we call Hawking radiation. In the other case, the positive particle gets swallowed by the black hole and the negative particle escapes, but the negative particle is traveling in a universe full of positive particles, it will eventually meet one and both will nullify, and it will be just as if the black hole swallowed that particle which got nullified in the first place.

I think exotic matter is hard to detect because unlike normal matter, it does not clump together under gravity as its gravity is repulsive, it doesn't form objects but remains as a thinly spread out gas throughout the Universe, causing the expansion of the Universe but very little else.

Now maybe artificially, exotic matter can be harvested and collected to make objects out of, but I do not think the Universe will do that out of it's own accord.

As a science fiction device, exotic matter can give us the Traveller Maneuver Drive, it can produce artificial gravity, it can create warp drives and wormholes, and even time machines.
Some people say that the fact that it could make time machines means that it could not exist, because they refuse to leave the deterministic mindset, they hand wave quantum uncertainty away and at their core they believe the Universe consists of particles that move with clockwork precision, Newtonian style.
  #24  
Old March 24th, 2021, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Werner View Post
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Originally Posted by whulorigan View Post
For the case in question, the virtual particle-pair creation occurs just above the event horizon, where one of the pair falls past the horizon, and the other escapes.
There are two possibilities with virtual particle pairs. In one case the positive particle escape and the negative one gets swallowed by the black hole, the positive particle could be a photon or elementary particle and that is what we call Hawking radiation. In the other case, the positive particle gets swallowed by the black hole and the negative particle escapes, but the negative particle is traveling in a universe full of positive particles, it will eventually meet one and both will nullify, and it will be just as if the black hole swallowed that particle which got nullified in the first place.

I think exotic matter is hard to detect because unlike normal matter, it does not clump together under gravity as its gravity is repulsive, it doesn't form objects but remains as a thinly spread out gas throughout the Universe, causing the expansion of the Universe but very little else.

Now maybe artificially, exotic matter can be harvested and collected to make objects out of, but I do not think the Universe will do that out of it's own accord.

As a science fiction device, exotic matter can give us the Traveller Maneuver Drive, it can produce artificial gravity, it can create warp drives and wormholes, and even time machines.
Some people say that the fact that it could make time machines means that it could not exist, because they refuse to leave the deterministic mindset, they hand wave quantum uncertainty away and at their core they believe the Universe consists of particles that move with clockwork precision, Newtonian style.

The virtual particles in question in Hawking radiation are normal run-of-the-mill matter and antimatter pairs. They are not negative matter.
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Old March 24th, 2021, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
Nope - no tachyons, they have also been disproved.
Go and study Hawking radiation rather than making up pseudoscience.

Here is the PBS spacetime video on the subject to get you started:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPKj0YnKANw

Dark photons? Interesting idea, where is the paper on them... ah, they are a totally hypothetical interaction between dark matter, so nothing to do with negative mass or energy.

as to regular photons being negative energy carriers - nope.
I took a class in modern physics and it made no sense, my understanding of math is that if you add a negative number that is the same as subtracting a positive number, so if this happens with black holes which at one point had more mass and now has less mass, then that means a subtraction occured. Now common sense dictate that if a black hole would end up with less mass, then some of its mass got subtracted from it either by subtracting a positive or by adding a negative. If your explanation is "techno-babble techno-babble and the black hole shrinks and techno-babble is the reason why", I can't learn that because to me, it makes no sense. I can't just memorize the techno-babble and pretend it makes sense to me because it doesn't! It has to make sense for me to truly understand it rather that just memorizing a bunch of words and phrases like magical incantations uttered by a wizard and then something happens.

Last edited by Werner; March 24th, 2021 at 03:33 PM..
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Old March 24th, 2021, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by whulorigan View Post
The virtual particles in question in Hawking radiation are normal run-of-the-mill matter and antimatter pairs. They are not negative matter.
Then they would not cause a black hole to shrink if it swallowed one, and if the cosmos was filled with protons and anti protons coming into existance and then annihilating each other the vacuum would be filled with deadly radiation rather than what we call vacuum. The energy of the vacuum averages out to zero and that would not be the case it it was filled with matter and antimatter. A proton and an antiproton is not a virtual particle pair because both have positive energy that gets released when they come in contact with each other.
  #27  
Old March 24th, 2021, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Werner View Post
A proton and an antiproton is not a virtual particle pair because both have positive energy that gets released when they come in contact with each other.

Incorrect. A virtual particle pair is ALWAYS a matter-antimatter pair, by definition.
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Old March 24th, 2021, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
That's a common simplification of the process, yes.

Not that I can find in the physics literature I have access to. Negative matter is entirely a mathematical hypothesis and has no experimental or observational data to suggest it can even exist in our universe.
Yup, right
Argument by pointing to authority, this person has a degree so therefore his techno-babble must prove him right. We live in a world of quantum uncertainty, and yet must be fully deterministic in nature full of cause and effect in spite of evidence to the contrary, just have faith man, cause my explanation will not make sense to you because you are not a physicist, or let me substitute the word "Wizard".

Wizards in a fantasy setting can do stuff normal folks can't because they have studied magic. The class of wizardry is exclusive and not everyone can cast spells, and it can't be explained to non-wizards how magic works. Scientists are the "wizards" of the science fiction setting.
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Old March 24th, 2021, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by whulorigan View Post
Incorrect. A virtual particle pair is ALWAYS a matter-antimatter pair, by definition.
And E=mc^2. So if every cubic centimeter of space is filled with matter and antimatter annihilating then where is all the energy? As I understand it a matter antimatter reaction converts 100% of the mass of the two particles into energy, so that can't go unnoticed, the vacuum of space doesn't seem to be filled with that much energy.

To put it another way if matter and antimatter combined to produce nothing, this would not make a great way to propel a starship.

In one sense the vacuum of space is filled with virtual matter and antimatter particle pairs that come into and out of existance and yet we don't notice that, yet the same matter and antimatter is a viable Starship fuel because combining it produces a lot of energy, both can't be right at the same time, can it? As Winson Smith once said two plus two does not equal five, at least until the state tortured him enough to get him to agree that it does, an argument from authority if ever there was one.

Last edited by Werner; March 24th, 2021 at 03:30 PM..
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Old March 24th, 2021, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Werner View Post
And E=mc^2. So if every cubic centimeter of space is filled with matter and antimatter annihilating then where is all the energy? As I understand it a matter antimatter reaction converts 100% of the mass of the two particles into energy, so that can't go unnoticed, the vacuum of space doesn't seem to be filled with that much energy.

To put it another way if matter and antimatter combined to produce nothing, this would not make a great way to propel a starship.

In one sense the vacuum of space is filled with virtual matter and antimatter particle pairs that come into and out of existance and yet we don't notice that, yet the same matter and antimatter is a viable Starship fuel because combining it produces a lot of energy, both can't be right at the same time, can it? As Winson Smith once said two plus two does not equal five, at least until the state tortured him enough to get him to agree that it does, an argument from authority if ever there was one.
View/Read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle
https://www.universetoday.com/129471...ual-particles/
https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...particles-rea/
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MarquisSPIN 0433 Jone B792785-9Sir Richard Elruinn, Knight (Kt)FORN 0727 Dirli C994422-8
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