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  #461  
Old September 9th, 2013, 11:17 AM
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No chance to hit with suppression fire...it just forces them to try to keep thier heads down and generates an evade bonus for everyone on your side so your guys can shoot back and move undet fire easier. Fire and movement.

If you want a chance to hit the bad guys with some spray and pray use the panic fire rule in Mercenary pg 32.

Besides...if you want to do much more than either of these...or shoot normally in a single round you really need more than just under four seconds. And dont forget this all applies to
PCs too......if you want some all in one action that allows you to pin the threat, reduce his chance to hit you, and still be able to hit him effectively remember all undet four seconds remember he can then do the same.

Or use combos of the above as a team and you'll see how well tactics work.
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  #462  
Old September 9th, 2013, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by sabredog View Post
Or use combos of the above as a team and you'll see how well tactics work.
Would much prefer that - suppressing fire, others take aim, let up the suppressing fire, then pop them when they stick their heads back up. Works loads better than the movie concept: pop out and shoot, then retreat, opponent pops out and shoots, retreats, you pop out and shoot (at nothing because he already retreated), retreat, lather, rinse, repeat. Now, that could take 15 seconds.......
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  #463  
Old September 9th, 2013, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by sabredog View Post
No chance to hit with suppression fire...it just forces them to try to keep thier heads down and generates an evade bonus for everyone on your side so your guys can shoot back and move under fire easier.
As long as we don't need to hit anything, Max could probably slam-fire his pump shotgun.
  #464  
Old September 10th, 2013, 06:45 AM
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Fritz, I see that Donoma in the Wiki is still picture-less. Do you want to email me a picture and I can try to work out how to include it? Or did you register so that you can edit the Wiki?
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  #465  
Old September 10th, 2013, 07:12 AM
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I got registered. It took forever for my confirmation email to show up. (The email to which I have switched my account appears to be problematic in that regard - I just got a notice that the IC thread had been updated... on Friday.) I'm going to get a pic uploaded today.
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  #466  
Old September 10th, 2013, 11:53 AM
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Bringing over from IC thread:
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Originally Posted by SpaceBadger View Post
came to the conclusion to treat modern (TL 8) armor vest, flak jackets, and the like as Cloth-1. (Full Cloth according to Traveller is a coverall, presumably w hard ceramic plates at vulnerable spots; not concealable.)
I would disagree on the plates, though they might see double-layering (chest, front/inside of thighs, knees). Plates seem to be working up to "combat armor". Given when Traveller was written, the default would seem to be avoiding hard plates unless they get put onto an exoskeleton to take the weight. (That is all arguing for the Traveller POV as written, not for RL.) But, RL body armor is actually better than Traveller posited, imho, in some ways.

As to how to handle that - you're back to the question of abstracting combat. You could come up with all new tables for in-between stuff... or just make a call like you did. It works for me.

But, along those lines... what does "-1" mean? It subtracts one less as a DM than the table states? I was working up a spreadsheet for the pirates my players were about to encounter when I realized that every friggin' thing was in tables, and I had to come up with rolls for each possible weapon, at each possible range, for each NPC. Yeesh.

How about adding in the complexity of the NIJ levels? Is cloth really Level IIA? What if you splurge for a full Level III? Does that get you Cloth+ or Combat Armor-? Yeah.... abstracting is definitely the way to go..........
[EDIT: Looking at the tables, cloth armor gives an attack bonus(!) to certain weapons: claws, hooves, stinger, thrasher. Why would that be? Modern armor is also slash and puncture resistant (they have "knife" and "spike" NIJ levels). Odd, given that actual knives are easily resisted by cloth armor. Huh.]

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So your TL 8 Cloth-1 vest or jacket would be Cr175, or for the concealable vest Cr300. These are all quite adjustable to fit; if you really want tailored, that will cost more and probably take at least a week.
Makes sense. Sort of important to get a female vest that ... fits well, though. Not everything is easily adjustable for the full range of ... options. It doesn't have to be tailored, it just has to have the proper amount of ... room.
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  #467  
Old September 10th, 2013, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Fritz_Brown View Post
[EDIT: Looking at the tables, cloth armor gives an attack bonus(!) to certain weapons: claws, hooves, stinger, thrasher. Why would that be? Modern armor is also slash and puncture resistant (they have "knife" and "spike" NIJ levels). Odd, given that actual knives are easily resisted by cloth armor. Huh.]
If you look closer, the bonus to hit is less for cloth armor than the bonus to hit an unarmored target. So cloth still reduces the chance to hit compared to not wearing it. Things like hooves and claws are simply modeled as more likely to hit than the base 50/50 chance of an unmodified 'roll 8+'.
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Old September 10th, 2013, 04:10 PM
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Modern "cloth" armor falls under two basic types for law enforcement based on what the initial threat is. One if stab-proof armor, that is issued to to corrections personnel and less resistant to bullets because the panels are made of a different weave and fiber mix. But it does have some bullet resistance, and in any case the carriers have pockets to add hard or soft ballistic panels to increase bullet resistance if needed. Stab resistant vests are less bulky than the ones that resist bullets.

Ballistic panels that are less resistant to stabs, but better at resisting bullets are issued to road personnel. They also have pockets in the carriers to increase protection from higher velocity rounds.

Both type of vests do provide some significant protection from blunt trauma, however, which is why we were taught how to use them for defense even in a hand to hand fight. BTW: you also need to know how to use the things to protect yourself in a gun or knife fight, too, you can't just strap one on expect it to work for you - you have to learn to move and fight back effectively to make sure you always front your threat with panels and not just cotton carrier.

Most vest panels on the market are rated for stab and bullet resistance per Either California's or New Jersey's rating systems. My personal vest panels actually have warning labels "This panel is not designed to protect the wearer from sharp instruments", and includes a little drawing of a knife with an X through it. I have hard and soft panels I can add to it, though.

If it seems odd that Traveller Cloth isn't as puncture resistant than you think it should be the reason for that is well grounded in reality.


Also, the Cloth -1 rating for flak jackets from Mercenary means just what it says: use the Cloth armor DM at one step less than normal. If you have -3 against a gun it is now only -2. The reason is that Cloth is considered to cover all of you and provide better protection thereby, whereas Flak Jackets only cover your torso.

Now if you want to argue complexity for threat level protection and all, then you really have to include coverage, too. And maybe fatigue, because I can tell you as an expert (yes, even according to the definition on the COTI boards I am an expert in these things) in this area it is really, really hard fighting in body armor (even just a vest) when you are 30+ years old and not a fighting prime 19YO in the military.

It is like wearing a wetsuit that is semi rigid and restricting your breathing as well as keeping in ALL the heat your body builds up. Your movement is restricted and you can't bend or twist worth a damn. If you haven't trained to fight in it with guns, knives, and fists you will not be able to do so. It causes you to overbalance, it makes groundfighting a scary nightmare, and the only good thing I found about it was that it reduced the force of my opponent's blows and made me feel a little safer (a little) if he had a knife. You could always tell when an officer was in a fight, even a small short one, because his vest was all blown out with the Velcro straps undone. The joke in DT training was how some guys would "hulk-out" as they stepped up for bag and groundfighting drills by flexing their torso so the Velcro on the vests would pop loose and they'd say "Yeah, now I can breathe". Funny because it was so true.

And the SWAT suits that were just like the ones the military wears - oh God, the Camelbacks save your life, and you feel like your wearing an old fashioned deep sea diver suit and you'll seat off pounds on a warm day. But you do feel pretty invincible, I have to acknowledge that.


So maybe there should be a minor penalty for just wearing the stuff if you have no training for it - like how you can't wear combat or BD unless you ave the Vacc Siut or BD 1? That would be more accurate.
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  #469  
Old September 10th, 2013, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
If you look closer, the bonus to hit is less for cloth armor than the bonus to hit an unarmored target.
Good point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sabredog View Post
//SNIP good stuff//
So maybe there should be a minor penalty for just wearing the stuff if you have no training for it - like how you can't wear combat or BD unless you ave the Vacc Siut or BD 1? That would be more accurate.
Good info. But... complexity. I, ummm, retract the issue and argue for simplicity.

(And, that actually is all really good info. I'm better educated than before. Thank you. (And, sorta why I asked - I wanted us to know more and figured the appropriate smart folks would weigh in.))
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  #470  
Old September 10th, 2013, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabredog View Post
So maybe there should be a minor penalty for just wearing the stuff if you have no training for it - like how you can't wear combat or BD unless you ave the Vacc Siut or BD 1? That would be more accurate.
Maybe at lower TL's(7 or so), a reduction in DEX and END? Think about the improvement from TL6 to TL7, and extrapolating to TL8 and 9, maybe there is none.
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