Traveller Store CotI Features New Posts Mark Forums Read Register


Go Back TravellerRPG.com > Citizens of the Imperium > Other Versions of Traveller > Traveller: The New Era

Traveller: The New Era Discussion on Traveller: The New Era

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old April 12th, 2021, 05:21 PM
TheDark TheDark is offline
Citizen: SOC-9
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 55
Gallery : 0
TheDark Citizen
Default Black powder as a rocket fuel

In poking through FF&S and WTH the other day, I realized the books don't allow for black powder rockets, like the Hale and Congreve or even the early Chinese rockets like the Huo Jian. So, as part of getting the collective brain trust involved, here are a couple proposed additions to the Self-Contained Thrusters table on page 70 of FF&S:

Engines
TL 2 Black Powder, Th *, MaxT 1, FC 25, FT BP, Airframe Super
TL 3 Black Powder, Th *, MaxT 2, FC 20, FT BP, Airframe Super

Fuel
TL 2 Black Powder Density 1.5, Price 7500
TL 3 Black Powder Density 2, Price 10000

The FC is loosely based on the difference between black powder's specific impulse and early solid rocket fuel specific impulse. Density is likewise roughly based on black powder's, and the price is based on WTH page 99 listing artillery charges at 5 credits per kilogram. Thrust works the same as for SF Rockets. Max Thrust numbers are wild guesses but intended to keep rockets small and less powerful than anything on the existing table.

This is very much a work in progress, so thoughts about how to improve this are welcome.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old April 12th, 2021, 06:07 PM
Werner Werner is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 759
Gallery : 0
Werner Citizen+Werner Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDark View Post
In poking through FF&S and WTH the other day, I realized the books don't allow for black powder rockets, like the Hale and Congreve or even the early Chinese rockets like the Huo Jian. So, as part of getting the collective brain trust involved, here are a couple proposed additions to the Self-Contained Thrusters table on page 70 of FF&S:

Engines
TL 2 Black Powder, Th *, MaxT 1, FC 25, FT BP, Airframe Super
TL 3 Black Powder, Th *, MaxT 2, FC 20, FT BP, Airframe Super

Fuel
TL 2 Black Powder Density 1.5, Price 7500
TL 3 Black Powder Density 2, Price 10000

The FC is loosely based on the difference between black powder's specific impulse and early solid rocket fuel specific impulse. Density is likewise roughly based on black powder's, and the price is based on WTH page 99 listing artillery charges at 5 credits per kilogram. Thrust works the same as for SF Rockets. Max Thrust numbers are wild guesses but intended to keep rockets small and less powerful than anything on the existing table.

This is very much a work in progress, so thoughts about how to improve this are welcome.
Black powder requires an oxidizer, so it won't work in space.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old April 12th, 2021, 06:18 PM
Timerover51's Avatar
Timerover51 Timerover51 is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: North of Chicago
Posts: 6,768
Gallery : 5
Visit Timerover51's Blog
Timerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Black powder requires an oxidizer, so it won't work in space.
The oxidizer in black powder is the saltpeter, which is normally around 75 percent of the mix. Black powder will function fine in a vacuum. The rest of the mixture is typically 15 percent charcoal (a limited number of trees supply good charcoal), and 10 percent sulphur.
__________________
Star Port Administrator: El Paso, El Paso, Sword Sub-sector, Piper-Norton Out Rim Sector
Link to Piper Sector: http://www.zarthani.net/ridder-mankind_to_the_stars.htm
Do you have a security clearance? New Juky 20 Blog Entry: Bereaved Parents
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElI451TxsTg, 3:24 in.
I march to my own set of bagpipes. Caution: This individual thinks that studying logistics is FUN.

They that go down to the sea in ships,
that do business in great waters;
These see the works of the LORD,
and his wonders in the deep.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old April 13th, 2021, 12:51 AM
aramis's Avatar
aramis aramis is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Anchorage, AK, USofA
Posts: 29,697
Gallery : 56
Visit aramis's Blog
aramis has disabled reputation
Send a message via ICQ to aramis Send a message via AIM to aramis Send a message via Yahoo to aramis
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timerover51 View Post
The oxidizer in black powder is the saltpeter, which is normally around 75 percent of the mix. Black powder will function fine in a vacuum. The rest of the mixture is typically 15 percent charcoal (a limited number of trees supply good charcoal), and 10 percent sulphur.
This has been demonstrated by several youtubers.
Cody's Lab is the one I most remember... he's done a couple. I can only easily google one up from him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yQB...el=Cody%27sLab
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhDw...plosiveScience
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ijm0...pedPerceptionX
__________________
~ Aramis
aramis.hostman.us /trav
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!

Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
Marquis of the Solomani Rim (SOLO 0606)
Marquis of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2410)
Baron of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2231)
Knight of the Iridium Throne (CORE 1434)
Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
Knight of Deneb (REFT 2239)
Knight of Deneb (Spin 2532)
SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
MCG - Battle of Boughene
TAS: William Hostman (CORR 2506)
TAS: Bearer (DAIB 1326)
IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu dt f+ fs++ ge ih- inf j jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
Unless there is bold red text, presume my posts to be my personal material only.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old April 19th, 2021, 06:36 AM
Werner Werner is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 759
Gallery : 0
Werner Citizen+Werner Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timerover51 View Post
The oxidizer in black powder is the saltpeter, which is normally around 75 percent of the mix. Black powder will function fine in a vacuum. The rest of the mixture is typically 15 percent charcoal (a limited number of trees supply good charcoal), and 10 percent sulphur.
I remember the saying, "keep your powder dry." Apparently keeping black powder dry was important to the musketeer. Most soldiers in the gunpowder age took pains not to dunk their firearms in water or to get their powder horns wet, apparently wet gunpowder didn't work very well or at all.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old April 19th, 2021, 08:41 AM
whulorigan's Avatar
whulorigan whulorigan is offline
Count
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,831
Gallery : 0
Visit whulorigan's Blog
whulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
I remember the saying, "keep your powder dry." Apparently keeping black powder dry was important to the musketeer. Most soldiers in the gunpowder age took pains not to dunk their firearms in water or to get their powder horns wet, apparently wet gunpowder didn't work very well or at all.
As a 17th Century Living History re-enactor, I can tell you with authority that damp blackpowder (even blackpowder on a humid day) routinely causes misfires/hangfires, or makes firing completely impossible (to say nothing of it being actually wet).

Matchlocks are more reliable in humid conditions than firelocks, simply because a matchlock does not have a metal frizzen on which condensation can accumulate, extinguishing any potential spark. (Hot smoldering match going directly into powder is much more reliable in such cases, though it can still suffer from the powder "gumming-up" with humidity, however, just like with a firelock).

A firelock will not fire reliably (or at all) in humidity or rain of any amount, whereas I can usually fairly reliably fire my matchlock in a light rain or drizzle.


BTW, this thread may also prove to be of some interest: English Civil War Small Arms for TL 2 worlds .
__________________
.



WHULorigan (Wayne)

Lord Richard Elruinn Ilendrick Rhovanion of Rhylanor, Bt., KIT, KTI, KD, MCUF
Count RhovanionSPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-FSir Richard, Knight (Kt)SPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-F
MarquisSPIN 0433 Jone B792785-9Sir Richard Elruinn, Knight (Kt)FORN 0727 Dirli C994422-8
Baronet of Jae TellonaSPIN 2814 Jae Tellona A560565-8Knight of Deneb (KD)SPIN 2814 Jae Tellona A560565-8
Baron of the Third ImperiumSPIN 3220 Powaza C787566-5Knight of the Third Imperium (KTI)SPIN 3235 Trin A894A96-F
Knight of the Iridium Throne (KIT)CORE 2419 Sevan A544576-A
Richard Elruinn Rhovanion (TAS Member #0008)SPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-F

Other Awards
:
Duke of the Third ImperiumREAV 3209 Kylian BA57742-A
Duke of KhouthCORR 0104 Khouth A8C3999-D
Viscount of AlellSPIN 1706 Alell B56789CA
Baron of ImlaarDENE 2212 Imlaar D677551-6SEH - For Extreme Heroism @ The Battle of Ruby
Baroness of NorthammonDENE 0921 Northammon B764667-AMCGx2 - For Conspicuous Gallantry @ The Assaults on Dinomn & Denotam

Link: Traveller5 Noble Patents Registry

Last edited by whulorigan; April 19th, 2021 at 10:17 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old April 19th, 2021, 11:13 AM
Enoki Enoki is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,908
Gallery : 30
Enoki Citizen++Enoki Citizen++Enoki Citizen++Enoki Citizen++
Default

Black powder as a rocket propellant has several poor qualities. Unlike smokeless powder or nitrocellulose that has mostly replaced it, it is consumed essentially all at once making it an explosive versus a very energetic, fast burning material. It also has a rather low specific impulse by weight so it doesn't provide as much thrust as other fuels would.

The result is that past a certain point more isn't better. That is, black powder as a propellant is consumed in an instant rather than giving sustained thrust over several seconds or longer. That means the rocket receives a specific impulse on launch then coasts thereafter.

This, in turn, means that a black powder rocket has a limited range based on that initial velocity and its weight and aerodynamic shape.

There are some pages available for amateur black powder rocketry that might be useful as a starting point for determining flight distances, etc.

https://www.insanerocketry.com/blackpowder.html
http://rocketrycalculator.com/rocket...YF7-AXHHZftliK

Of course, these are for small motors. Something larger would require a casting of the powder to allow for proper ignition rather than just packing the rocket with it.

In a Traveller setting, I'd think a crude rocket fuel would more likely be something like rubber dissolved in a solvent with quick lime added then cast into motor form. Asphalt (tar) would be another alternative. Changing the quick lime to ammonium nitrate would be even better. These could be manufactured at very low tech levels as easily--and more safely--than black powder.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old April 12th, 2021, 06:11 PM
Timerover51's Avatar
Timerover51 Timerover51 is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: North of Chicago
Posts: 6,768
Gallery : 5
Visit Timerover51's Blog
Timerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved Citizen
Default

During the U.S. Civil War, the Union government was paying 25 cents per pound for gunpowder, with much of the required saltpeter being imported from India. Twenty-five cents a pound would equate to fifty-five cents a kilogram. The Dupont Powder Mill in Wilmington, Delaware was turning out 175 barrels of powder a day at 100 pounds per barrel. The Union purchased over 23 million pounds of various types of black powder during the Civil War.

That price is an order of magnitude too high.

For more information on making blackpowder rockets, you might wish to download a copy of the 1861/1862 U.S. Army Ordnance Manual from archive.org. On Project Gutenberg, you also have Congreve's book, The Details of the Rocket System.
__________________
Star Port Administrator: El Paso, El Paso, Sword Sub-sector, Piper-Norton Out Rim Sector
Link to Piper Sector: http://www.zarthani.net/ridder-mankind_to_the_stars.htm
Do you have a security clearance? New Juky 20 Blog Entry: Bereaved Parents
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElI451TxsTg, 3:24 in.
I march to my own set of bagpipes. Caution: This individual thinks that studying logistics is FUN.

They that go down to the sea in ships,
that do business in great waters;
These see the works of the LORD,
and his wonders in the deep.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old April 12th, 2021, 09:13 PM
TheDark TheDark is offline
Citizen: SOC-9
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 55
Gallery : 0
TheDark Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timerover51 View Post
During the U.S. Civil War, the Union government was paying 25 cents per pound for gunpowder, with much of the required saltpeter being imported from India. Twenty-five cents a pound would equate to fifty-five cents a kilogram. The Dupont Powder Mill in Wilmington, Delaware was turning out 175 barrels of powder a day at 100 pounds per barrel. The Union purchased over 23 million pounds of various types of black powder during the Civil War.

That price is an order of magnitude too high.
The price probably doesn't match real world examples, but for the sake of providing a clear starting point for people to house rule from, I'll stick with the canon price for cannon powder from the World Tamer's Handbook.

Quote:
For more information on making blackpowder rockets, you might wish to download a copy of the 1861/1862 U.S. Army Ordnance Manual from archive.org. On Project Gutenberg, you also have Congreve's book, The Details of the Rocket System.
The 1850 Ordnance Manual is also helpful. It doesn't have the details on making rockets, but it does have range tables. Britain's 1887 Treatise on Ammunition has some details on rockets, but it doesn't seem to be freely available online so I'm not certain exactly what it has.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old April 13th, 2021, 01:53 AM
Timerover51's Avatar
Timerover51 Timerover51 is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: North of Chicago
Posts: 6,768
Gallery : 5
Visit Timerover51's Blog
Timerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDark View Post
The price probably doesn't match real world examples, but for the sake of providing a clear starting point for people to house rule from, I'll stick with the canon price for cannon powder from the World Tamer's Handbook.
I am not sure what you mean by "real world examples" as that is a Real World Example from a time when black powder was in very wide use. If you mean the price of black powder today, it is going to be quite a bit higher, as the quantity produced is much lower that millions of pounds a year.

Per the report of the Chief of Ordnance for the Fiscal Year ending on June 30, 1882, the Ordnance Department sold to Dupont on July 6, 1881 77,700 pounds of serviceable cannon powder for 12 cents a pound, presumably surplus from the Civil War purchases.

On July 13, 1881, the Ordnance Department sold to Dupont 1,200 pounds of unserviceable cannon powder for eight cents a pound.

On November 14, 1881, the Ordnance Department sold to Dupont 192,400 pounds of cannon powder for 10.5 cents per pound.

These were also the prices of black powder being sold to other companies as well.

On July 7, 1881 the Ordnance Department sold to Dupont 100.000 pounds of serviceable musket powder for 14 cents a pound. These sales alone equal 370,100 pounds of cannon powder, viewed as surplus by the government. Do you want a screen shot of the full sale list posted?

Edit Note: The 1895 Montgomery Ward Spring and Summer Catalogue lists Dupont selling 25 pound kegs of black powder for $3.25 a keg. That is 13 cents a pound per 25 pound keg.

Edit Note 2: The following quote comes from the book, America's Munitions 1917-1918 by Benedict Crowell, Assistant Secretary of War, Director of Munitions, published by the Government Printing Office in 1919, reporting on U.S. military production for the Army in World War One. It can be found on both Project Gutenberg and archive.org.

Quote:
Black powder of all grades for military purposes was being produced at the rate of 840,000 pounds a month, at a cost of 25 cents a pound, at the time the armistice was signed. At that time there was on hand 6,850,000 pounds of black powder.
__________________
Star Port Administrator: El Paso, El Paso, Sword Sub-sector, Piper-Norton Out Rim Sector
Link to Piper Sector: http://www.zarthani.net/ridder-mankind_to_the_stars.htm
Do you have a security clearance? New Juky 20 Blog Entry: Bereaved Parents
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElI451TxsTg, 3:24 in.
I march to my own set of bagpipes. Caution: This individual thinks that studying logistics is FUN.

They that go down to the sea in ships,
that do business in great waters;
These see the works of the LORD,
and his wonders in the deep.

Last edited by Timerover51; April 13th, 2021 at 03:04 AM.. Reason: Added Information
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
TNE Only: Designing a TL 7 8 cm HE Solid Fuel Rocket snrdg082102 Traveller: The New Era 9 May 27th, 2019 02:06 PM
COACC rocket vs. Hard Times rocket Carlobrand Imperial Research Station 14 August 14th, 2012 03:51 PM
A little bit of HP rocket news RandyT0001 Random Static 10 May 2nd, 2009 02:54 AM
black powder feat Mythmere T20 - Traveller for the D20 System 13 July 19th, 2003 11:04 PM
Jump engines fuel vs. Power plant fuel Bishop Odo The Fleet 16 January 7th, 2003 12:22 PM

This website and its contents are copyright ©2010- Far Future Enterprises. All rights reserved. Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises .
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright (c) 2010-2013, Far Future Enterprises. All Rights Reserved.