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  #1  
Old September 2nd, 2003, 10:43 PM
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I suppose that some of this will be answered in the 1248 sourcebook and there is still an open question of what happens after 1248, but why is the period after the Rebellion a Short Twilight rather than a Long Night?

It seems that the 3rd Imperium got smashed down harder than the 1st/2nd one did after the Black War followed by the Virus. Yet, the beginnings of the recovery seem to have come faster. Is it because of the Hivers? The Regency? Greater contact with the other starfaring civilizations (Zhodani, 2000 Worlds, Aslan, and Vargr)?

Falling from TL-15 (as a max) rather than a TL-11/12 could be a factor, but, in a way, a fall from a higher tech level is harder than falling from a lower one.

Of course, from the future history perspective, the 4th Imperium could be one of those brief flares of hope that were quickly extinguished in the 2nd Long Night.

Ron
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Old September 2nd, 2003, 11:01 PM
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Ron Vutpakdi wrote:

"... but why is the period after the Rebellion a Short Twilight rather than a Long Night?"


Mr. Vutpakdi,

Because of the survival and/or quick revival of large expanding interstellar polities.

"It seems that the 3rd Imperium got smashed down harder than the 1st/2nd one did after the Black War followed by the Virus. Yet, the beginnings of the recovery seem to have come faster."

Yup, thus Twilight rather than Night.

"Is it because of the Hivers?"

Yes. Although hit hard by Virus, they seemed to either rebound quickly or not fall at all.

"The Regency?"

Yes. The Spinward States never fall at all. They do become isolationist out of shear necessity, but they also plan to return to the devestated areas 'some day'.

"Greater contact with the other starfaring civilizations (Zhodani, 2000 Worlds, Aslan, and Vargr)?"

Sort of. The Zho consulate survives, although whatever the Empress Wave is/was may make any long term survival questionable. The Aslan survive in a rump state of sorts across the Great Rift from their old heartland. The K'Kree go down in flames*. The Vargr Extents don't survive either, although there are hints that some Virus/Vargr fusion may be taking shape in the Extents.


Sincerely,
Larsen

* - The hints surrounding M:1248 suggest something is up with the K'Kree, but I think we can safely say that the 2000 Worlds is gone. Whatever arises from that rubble is another story...
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Old September 2nd, 2003, 11:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
The Vargr Extents don't survive either, although there are hints that some Virus/Vargr fusion may be taking shape in the Extents.
Oh goodie!

A Vargoborg .... a dog that constantly keeps bringing you the ball to toss and saying 'resistance is futile... toss the ball'.

[img]graemlins/file_21.gif[/img]
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Old September 3rd, 2003, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
Sort of. The Zho consulate survives, although whatever the Empress Wave is/was may make any long term survival questionable. The Aslan survive in a rump state of sorts across the Great Rift from their old heartland. The K'Kree go down in flames*. The Vargr Extents don't survive either, although there are hints that some Virus/Vargr fusion may be taking shape in the Extents.

* - The hints surrounding M:1248 suggest something is up with the K'Kree, but I think we can safely say that the 2000 Worlds is gone. Whatever arises from that rubble is another story... [/QB]
That's not the impression I've got from what MJD's implied... it sounds like it's the Zhos that go down in flames because of the Empress Wave, and the K'Kree get hit hard along with everyone else, but a good chunk of the 2000 worlds reform into the Dominite.
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Old September 3rd, 2003, 12:49 AM
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kaladorn wrote concerning a Virus/Vargr fusion:

"Oh goodie!"

"A Vargoborg .... a dog that constantly keeps bringing you the ball to toss and saying 'resistance is futile... toss the ball'.


Tom,

Yeah, the whole affair could be handled *extremely* poorly but the possibility has existed since well before Virus slithered out of whichever head created it.

First, we have the extreme malleability and 'try anything once' nature of Vargr society.

Second, MT introduced the Oekhas (spelled wrong) in their description of the Vargr in the Rebellion Sourcebook. DGP decided to bolster their idea of the Vargr panting (pun intended) to attack the 3I only to be kept leashed (pun intended again) by the might of the IN. Exhibiting a single minded impulse runs counter to everything we know about Vargr society, so DGP had to come up with some excuse. Enter the Oekhas.

It was an entertainment device* of sorts that customized its presentations to the individual user, even taken the customization down to the level of what types of presentation the user likes best. I've always thought of it as TiVo on steroids with a dash of AI. Anyway, the device's interaction with the Vargr user was supposedly further enhanced by it's ability to take on and project charisma. It's almost as if a trailer park inhabitant began paying attention to and following the orders of his VCR because it began speaking like his high school football coach with a BBC accent. 'Bubba! Stop picking your nose and go buy more shotgun ammunition so you can shoot the neighbors. Only then will I let you watch the all-star wrestling. Move it!'

Silly? Certainly. Canonical? Unfortunately.

I hadn't finished reading the Challenge magazine introduction to Virus and TNE when I wondered what Virus could do with the Oekhas device and, by extension, the Vargr. Apparently so did everyone else in Our Olde Hobby. TNE's RSB drops the biggest hints about the Vargr/Virus fusion and even those are just crumbs. Avery's mission crossed into the Extents before swimming beyond the ken of man. Who knows what's happening out there? DN won't talk and MJD must cover all of Chartered Space in M:1248.


Sincerely,
Larsen

* - Which had NEVER been introduced, built, or even thought of in the millennia-long history of the Vargr as a technological species. Let's see, a Vargr's power depends on her ability to project charisma among her peers and any advance in communication technologies would enhance this, but no one had ever dreamed of the Oekhas(sp) until just prior to 1117. Yeah, right... Pull the other one, DGP, it has bells on it.
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Old September 3rd, 2003, 01:11 AM
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Evil Dr Ganymede wrote:

"That's not the impression I've got from what MJD's implied... it sounds like it's the Zhos that go down in flames because of the Empress Wave, and the K'Kree get hit hard along with everyone else, but a good chunk of the 2000 worlds reform into the Dominite."


Dr. Thomas,

That isn't exactly what we were discussing.

The original poster was wondering the crash caused by the release of Virus only resulted in a decades-long Short Twilight, even though Virus did far more damage than the slow decay of the Second Imperium which resulted in a Long Night lasting nearly 2000 years.

The Zhos survive the release of Virus, the catastrophe in question. They then, as I wrote, do not survive the Empress Wave.

As for the K'Kree, the only large interstellar states known to us in 1200 are the Spinward States, the RC, and the Hive Federation. The condition of the Aslan, Vargr, and K'Kree are simply unknown. The Spinward Aslan rump has snuck across the Great Rift to look around and found nothing. The Regency and Zhos have no idea what is happening in the former Extents.

The only operational polity anywhere near the 2000 Worlds is the Hive Federation. If they know anything, they aren't talking. The idea that the Hivers might no have been looking around in the former 2000 Worlds is silly on its face. If they've expended the resources to examine and select a human settled region in which to launch a manipulation; the RC, they have most certainly been also expending resource in an attempt to keep tabs on their former enemies; the K'Kree.

So, in the mid-1100s, the K'Kree go down under the assault of Virus. There are no large, surviving polities like the Spinward States, RC, or Hive Federation. That is not to say there aren't various pocket empires and TEDs, just that there isn't a surviving 'safe' region.

Whatever comes out of the 2000 Worlds in the mid-1200s is most definitely not a remnant that pre-Viral polity. It is something that developed afterwards.


Sincerely,
Larsen
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Old September 3rd, 2003, 05:18 AM
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The Long Night was so long because everything radually collapsed to a very low point over time. That meant that there was no springboard to recver from, and no recent memories of better times/ways to do things.

The 1130 Collapse might have gone that way, but for the fact that everything was smashed flat while there was something left to rebuild with. Once evceryone revocered from the stunning blow (intact polities and others), there was something to recvioer with. Which is why 1200+ is a recovery where 0+ was really ther building of somerthing new.

if that makes any sense.
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Old September 3rd, 2003, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
* - Which had NEVER been introduced, built, or even thought of in the millennia-long history of the Vargr as a technological species. Let's see, a Vargr's power depends on her ability to project charisma among her peers and any advance in communication technologies would enhance this, but no one had ever dreamed of the Oekhas(sp) until just prior to 1117. Yeah, right... Pull the other one, DGP, it has bells on it.
They never read MacLuhan I guess.
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