Traveller Store CotI Features New Posts Mark Forums Read Register


Go Back TravellerRPG.com > Citizens of the Imperium > General Traveller Discussions > Imperial Research Station

Imperial Research Station A forum for discussing technology and related topics for use in the Traveller Universe

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old March 23rd, 2021, 09:11 AM
Werner Werner is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 702
Gallery : 0
Werner Citizen+Werner Citizen+
Default Exotic Matter Drives

This is the stuff that keeps wormholes open and makes warp drives possible, it is matter with negative mass-energy, when in large concentrations it produces antigravity fields and it has negative inertia. For game purposes exotic matter is found in nuggets at negative densities similar to the positive densities of neutron stars, and the usually are positively charged or negatively charged but never neutral as like charges attract and opposite charges repel due to negative inertia.

How would this affect the Traveller Universe if it was widely avaliable?
  #2  
Old March 23rd, 2021, 09:43 AM
whulorigan's Avatar
whulorigan whulorigan is offline
Count
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,809
Gallery : 0
Visit whulorigan's Blog
whulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
This is the stuff that keeps wormholes open and makes warp drives possible, it is matter with negative mass-energy, when in large concentrations it produces antigravity fields and it has negative inertia. For game purposes exotic matter is found in nuggets at negative densities similar to the positive densities of neutron stars, and the usually are positively charged or negatively charged but never neutral as like charges attract and opposite charges repel due to negative inertia.
My understanding according to theoretical-based conjecture is that positive mass would always be attractive (toward either positive or negative mass) and negative mass would always be repulsive (toward either positive or negative mass): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negati...Runaway_motion

On the Talking M-Drive Acceleration thread, ATPollard and I were discussing some topics tangentially related to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by whulorigan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
Perhaps the MD just reduces mass relative to the universe slowly so I accelerate until I am massless and travel at the speed of light. Then what happens if it continues to reduce mass and I start to have negative mass (which is the equivalent of negative energy). Will I accelerate past the speed of light?
I have always thought that would be an interesting basis for an ultra-tech Inertialess Drive - one in which the rest-mass of the ship can be "tunably" decoupled from the Higgs Field (which gives fundamental particles their intrinsic rest-masses), allowing the ship to produce a pseudo-acceleration as the inertial-mass gets "tuned down" toward zero.

An interesting consequence of negative mass would be that it experiences a repulsive force from either a positive or negative mass, while at the same time a positive mass would attract either a positive or negative mass. The result is that a negative mass and a positive mass coupled together would accelerate as a unit toward lightpseed in order to preserve conservation of momentum and energy (remember, the masses as well as the velocities will have signs in the conservation equation), which is completely counter-intuitive.

There are actually scientific papers written on this conjectural topic. See: https://arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514...urnalCode=jpp&

=================================

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
How would this affect the Traveller Universe if it was widely avaliable?
  1. It would revolutionize STL travel for one thing. Maneuver Drives with no reaction mass or power requirements for drive operation. (Perhaps there would be other energy costs or complications associated with producing/maintaining the negative-mass in a useful configuration, however).
  2. You would potentially have a true perpetual motion machine that does NOT violate the laws of physics, especially if you can convert the system to circular motion in some fashion.
  3. Depending on the speed a particular FTL negative mass-drive (Alcubierre Warp-Drive) could achieve at a given TL, there could be potential interstellar travel in less than 1 week.
  4. There could be potential FTL-communication systems
__________________
.



WHULorigan (Wayne)

Lord Richard Elruinn Ilendrick Rhovanion of Rhylanor
Count RhovanionSPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-FSir Richard, Knight (Kt)SPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-F
MarquisSPIN 0433 Jone B792785-9Sir Richard Elruinn, Knight (Kt)FORN 0727 Dirli C994422-8
Baronet of Jae TellonaSPIN 2814 Jae Tellona A560565-8Knight of Deneb (KD)SPIN 2814 Jae Tellona A560565-8
Baron of the Third ImperiumSPIN 3220 Powaza C787566-5Knight of the Third Imperium (KTI)SPIN 3235 Trin A894A96-F
Knight of the Iridium Throne (KIT)CORE 2419 Sevan A544576-A
Richard Elruinn Rhovanion (TAS Member #0008)SPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-F

Other Awards
:
Duke of the Third ImperiumREAV 3209 Kylian BA57742-A
Duke of KhouthCORR 0104 Khouth A8C3999-D
Viscount of AlellSPIN 1706 Alell B56789CA
Baron of ImlaarDENE 2212 Imlaar D677551-6SEH - For Extreme Heroism @ The Battle of Ruby
Baroness of NorthammonDENE 0921 Northammon B764667-AMCGx2 - For Conspicuous Gallantry @ The Assaults on Dinomn & Denotam

Link: Traveller5 Noble Patents Registry

Last edited by whulorigan; March 23rd, 2021 at 10:44 AM..
  #3  
Old March 23rd, 2021, 10:45 AM
Werner Werner is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 702
Gallery : 0
Werner Citizen+Werner Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whulorigan View Post
My understanding according to theoretical-based conjecture is that positive mass would always be attractive (toward either positive or negative mass) and negative mass would always be repulsive (toward either positive or negative mass): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negati...Runaway_motion

On the Talking M-Drive Acceleration thread, ATPollard and I were discussing some topics tangentially related to this:
The greater mass magnitude wins out. You could have a negmatter planet orbiting a positive mass star, it will orbit a little slower at the same radius as a positive mass planet. At the densities I'm talking about, this negmatter planet would have a diameter measured in centimeters and it would be held together by something other than gravity. Maybe electric charge a negmatter planet would have a positive charge and be surrounded by a cloud of electrons.
  #4  
Old March 23rd, 2021, 12:13 PM
Werner Werner is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 702
Gallery : 0
Werner Citizen+Werner Citizen+
Default

I got to think carefully. The gravitational formula has two masses and if the sum of the two masses is positive then the gravitational force between them will be attractive, if the sum is negative thenforce will be repulsive.
  #5  
Old March 23rd, 2021, 12:28 PM
whulorigan's Avatar
whulorigan whulorigan is offline
Count
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,809
Gallery : 0
Visit whulorigan's Blog
whulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
I got to think carefully. The gravitational formula has two masses and if the sum of the two masses is positive then the gravitational force between them will be attractive, if the sum is negative then force will be repulsive.
Sum? Newtonian Gravitational Force is proportional to the Product of two masses. Or am I misunderstanding what you are getting at?

But the relationship for positive and negative masses is based on the articles I referenced above. You cannot simply assume the Newtonian formula works algebraically for negative mass in the same way as positive mass, as Newton did no experiments with, nor took into account negative masses in his formulation. We also have a much more sophisticated understanding of Gravity than Newton did as well.
__________________
.



WHULorigan (Wayne)

Lord Richard Elruinn Ilendrick Rhovanion of Rhylanor
Count RhovanionSPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-FSir Richard, Knight (Kt)SPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-F
MarquisSPIN 0433 Jone B792785-9Sir Richard Elruinn, Knight (Kt)FORN 0727 Dirli C994422-8
Baronet of Jae TellonaSPIN 2814 Jae Tellona A560565-8Knight of Deneb (KD)SPIN 2814 Jae Tellona A560565-8
Baron of the Third ImperiumSPIN 3220 Powaza C787566-5Knight of the Third Imperium (KTI)SPIN 3235 Trin A894A96-F
Knight of the Iridium Throne (KIT)CORE 2419 Sevan A544576-A
Richard Elruinn Rhovanion (TAS Member #0008)SPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-F

Other Awards
:
Duke of the Third ImperiumREAV 3209 Kylian BA57742-A
Duke of KhouthCORR 0104 Khouth A8C3999-D
Viscount of AlellSPIN 1706 Alell B56789CA
Baron of ImlaarDENE 2212 Imlaar D677551-6SEH - For Extreme Heroism @ The Battle of Ruby
Baroness of NorthammonDENE 0921 Northammon B764667-AMCGx2 - For Conspicuous Gallantry @ The Assaults on Dinomn & Denotam

Link: Traveller5 Noble Patents Registry

Last edited by whulorigan; March 23rd, 2021 at 01:49 PM..
  #6  
Old March 23rd, 2021, 02:01 PM
Werner Werner is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 702
Gallery : 0
Werner Citizen+Werner Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whulorigan View Post
Sum? Newtonian Gravitational Force is calculated based on the Product of two masses. Or am I misunderstanding what you are getting at?

But the relationship for positive and negative masses is based on the articles I referenced above. You cannot simply assume the Newtonian formula works algebraically for negative mass in the same way as positive mass, as Newton did no experiments with, nor took into account negative masses in his formulation. We also have a much more sophisticated understanding of Gravity than Newton did as well.
I was going from memory, didn't have the equation right in front of me. We have no experience with negative mass at all, there are a few guesses. Antigravity would have tidal force, it would have a pan caking effect rather than a stretching on. The part of you that was closest to the antigravity source would be pushed away the hardest. Antigravity would obey the inverse square law just as gravity does. And while gravity bends space creating a gravity well, antigravity would create a gravity hill, light would bend away from the source of antigravity. Stable orbits are impossible to achieve as centrifugal force and antigravity both work in the same direction unlike with gravity where they cancel each other out to achieve orbit.

Time would move faster the higher up the antigravity well you would climb. Light traveling outward would be blue shifted. You can't make a black hole with negative mass, the event horizon would be turned inside-out and be something you cannot enter rather than escape from. Time would also be infinitely accelerated at that inside-out event horizon and a white hole would only last for an instant, there would be and explosion and it would be gone, while black holes last nearly forever!

Also when negative mass comes in contact with positive mass, you have nullification rather than annihilation, whereas matter and antimatter produce energy, matter and negative matter just produce nothing. If you drop negative matter into a black hole, it shrinks, that is what Hawking radiation is, negative matter falling into a black hole leaving its positive matter twin particles to come out as radiation.
  #7  
Old March 23rd, 2021, 04:06 PM
whulorigan's Avatar
whulorigan whulorigan is offline
Count
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,809
Gallery : 0
Visit whulorigan's Blog
whulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizenwhulorigan Respected Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
... Antigravity would have tidal force, it would have a pan caking effect rather than a stretching one. The part of you that was closest to the antigravity source would be pushed away the hardest. Antigravity would obey the inverse square law just as gravity does. And while gravity bends space creating a gravity well, antigravity would create a gravity hill, light would bend away from the source of antigravity ... .

Time would move faster the higher up the antigravity well you would climb. Light traveling outward would be blue shifted. You can't make a black hole with negative mass, the event horizon would be turned inside-out and be something you cannot enter rather than escape from. Time would also be infinitely accelerated at that inside-out event horizon and a white hole would only last for an instant, there would be and explosion and it would be gone, while black holes last nearly forever!

Also when negative mass comes in contact with positive mass, you have nullification rather than annihilation, whereas matter and antimatter produce energy, matter and negative matter just produce nothing. If you drop negative matter into a black hole, it shrinks, that is what Hawking radiation is, negative matter falling into a black hole leaving its positive matter twin particles to come out as radiation.
All true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Stable orbits are impossible to achieve as centrifugal force and antigravity both work in the same direction unlike with gravity where they cancel each other out to achieve orbit.
But remember that much of the discussion depends on the equivalency principle. Inertial mass and gravitational mass are identical by all measurements to date (and General Relativity as formulated and observed to date requires their magnitudes to be identical). Now, all measurements to date have been measurements of positive inertial masses and positive gravitational masses, and it is clear that they are identical as regards their magnitude. But as to whether an object can have a positive value for one and a negative value for the other, that is a matter of conjecture. There is no reason to assume that they should not be identical in terms of sign for a given particle of mass, but neither is there a way to prove it to date. And there is no fundamental requirement from General Relativity that inertial mass and gravitational mass have the same sign. But conceptually there is no reason to think that they shouldn't.

For negative-mas/negative-mass interactions, "orbital" trajectories would be hyperbolic, a negative-mass being forced away from the anti-gravitating negative-mass center (which would be located at the opposite focus external to the hyperbola interior) as compared to a gravitational hyperbolic trajectory for a positive-mass object interacting with a positive-mass center, whose focus would be the center of gravitation located at the "interior" focus (but could also be a parabola, ellipse or circle, whose foci are also all located interior to the trajectory-path). A negative-mass and a positive-mass would accelerate as a unit along a vector in the direction of the positive mass, if full inertial/gravitational mass equivalency holds.

Also, a force applied to a negative mass would result in an acceleration in a direction opposite to the force applied. Like electric charges on negative mass particles would attract, and opposite ones would repel. The same would be the case for the Strong Nuclear Force: like color-charges would attract, and opposites would repel.
__________________
.



WHULorigan (Wayne)

Lord Richard Elruinn Ilendrick Rhovanion of Rhylanor
Count RhovanionSPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-FSir Richard, Knight (Kt)SPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-F
MarquisSPIN 0433 Jone B792785-9Sir Richard Elruinn, Knight (Kt)FORN 0727 Dirli C994422-8
Baronet of Jae TellonaSPIN 2814 Jae Tellona A560565-8Knight of Deneb (KD)SPIN 2814 Jae Tellona A560565-8
Baron of the Third ImperiumSPIN 3220 Powaza C787566-5Knight of the Third Imperium (KTI)SPIN 3235 Trin A894A96-F
Knight of the Iridium Throne (KIT)CORE 2419 Sevan A544576-A
Richard Elruinn Rhovanion (TAS Member #0008)SPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-F

Other Awards
:
Duke of the Third ImperiumREAV 3209 Kylian BA57742-A
Duke of KhouthCORR 0104 Khouth A8C3999-D
Viscount of AlellSPIN 1706 Alell B56789CA
Baron of ImlaarDENE 2212 Imlaar D677551-6SEH - For Extreme Heroism @ The Battle of Ruby
Baroness of NorthammonDENE 0921 Northammon B764667-AMCGx2 - For Conspicuous Gallantry @ The Assaults on Dinomn & Denotam

Link: Traveller5 Noble Patents Registry

Last edited by whulorigan; March 24th, 2021 at 08:40 AM..
  #8  
Old March 23rd, 2021, 05:47 PM
Werner Werner is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 702
Gallery : 0
Werner Citizen+Werner Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whulorigan View Post
All true.



But remember that much of the discussion depends on the equivalency principle. Inertial mass and gravitational mass are identical by all measurements to date (and General Relativity as formulated and observed to date requires their magnitudes to be identical). Now, all measurements to date have been measurements of positive inertial masses and positive gravitational masses, and it is clear that they are identical as regards their magnitude. But as to whether an object can have a positive value for one and a negative value for the other, that is a matter of conjecture. There is no reason to assume that they should not be identical in terms of sign for a given particle of mass, but neither is there a way to prove it to date. And there is no fundamental requirement from General Relativity that inertial mass and gravitational mass have the same sign. But conceptually there is no reason to think that they shouldn't.

For negative-mas/negative-mass interactions, "orbital" trajectories would be hyperbolic, a negative-mass being forced away from the anti-gravitating negative-mass center (which would be located at the opposite focus external to the hyperbola interior) as compared to a gravitational hyperbolic trajectory for a positive-mass object interacting with a positive-mass center, whose focus would be the center of gravitation located at the "interior" focus (but could also be a parabola, ellipse or circle, whose foci are also all located interior to the trajectory-path). A negative-mass and a positive-mass would accelerate as a unit along a vector in the direction of the positive mass, if full inertial/gravitational mass equivalency holds.

Also, a force applied to a negative mass would result in an acceleration in a direction opposite to the force applied. Like electric charges on negative mass particles would attract, and opposite ones would repel. The same would be the case for the Strong Nuclear Force: like color-charges would attract, and opposites would repel.
Also negative mass objects would tend not to form, if they occured in nature. In order to make an object, you need to overcome their gravitational repulsion so that shorter range forces such as electric charge can hold them together. Now if you do this, that is clearly a sign of intelligence at work. If there was a clump of negative matter orbiting a star, someone made it and put it's there, as negative particles that formed naturally would stay apart and not form objects, they might be the reason the universe is expanding at an accelerated rate. The Universe might have zero net mass, with each positive mass particle negated by a negative mass particle with equal magnitude but opposite sign mass. As the Universe expanded and cooled the positive mass would clump together and form stars, planets and galaxies, the negative mass particles would not, they would however exert an anti gravitational field over the entire universe, maybe causing such expansion to accelerate, just speculation on my part.
  #9  
Old March 23rd, 2021, 06:20 PM
aramis's Avatar
aramis aramis is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Anchorage, AK, USofA
Posts: 29,646
Gallery : 56
Visit aramis's Blog
aramis has disabled reputation
Send a message via ICQ to aramis Send a message via AIM to aramis Send a message via Yahoo to aramis
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Also negative mass objects would tend not to form, if they occured in nature.
That does not follow.

Positive Mass creates a deformation of spacetime which attracts positive mass.

Negative mass, mathematically should generate an opposite deformation of spacetime which would repel positive mass; it should them also draw other negative mass.
__________________
~ Aramis
aramis.hostman.us /trav
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!

Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
Marquis of the Solomani Rim (SOLO 0606)
Marquis of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2410)
Baron of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2231)
Knight of the Iridium Throne (CORE 1434)
Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
Knight of Deneb (REFT 2239)
Knight of Deneb (Spin 2532)
SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
MCG - Battle of Boughene
TAS: William Hostman (CORR 2506)
TAS: Bearer (DAIB 1326)
IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu dt f+ fs++ ge ih- inf j jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
Unless there is bold red text, presume my posts to be my personal material only.
  #10  
Old March 23rd, 2021, 08:26 PM
Werner Werner is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 702
Gallery : 0
Werner Citizen+Werner Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
That does not follow.

Positive Mass creates a deformation of spacetime which attracts positive mass.

Negative mass, mathematically should generate an opposite deformation of spacetime which would repel positive mass; it should them also draw other negative mass.
Gravity exerts a force on all objects in proportion to their mass. If for example you let go of a 1 kg object, Earth's gravity will pull it downwards exerting 9.8 newton's of force accelerating it downwards at 9.8 meters per second. Now if you dropped an object with a mass of -1 kg, the Earth's gravity will push it away with -9.8 newton's of force, and since it has negative inertia a push is a pull and it still falls toward Earth. But if we had a negative Earth worth of mass under it ,this negative Earth would pull the negative 1kg toward itself but since it has negative inertial a pull is a push and it falls upward, where it would push away a positive 1 kg and that would fall upwards as well, it all depends on which is the larger mass.
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Exotic Cuisine Timerover51 The Lone Star 67 February 9th, 2017 11:45 AM
Exotic Dinner Timerover51 The Lone Star 9 March 21st, 2016 12:20 AM
Anti-matter Jump Drives? daltoncalford Traveller 5 3 January 14th, 2014 11:02 AM
Exotic Locales kafka47 Imperial Interstellar Scout Service 7 December 15th, 2006 07:57 PM
an exotic atm in the HZ hydrozoa Imperial Interstellar Scout Service 0 March 29th, 2006 09:42 AM

This website and its contents are copyright ©2010- Far Future Enterprises. All rights reserved. Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises .
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright (c) 2010-2013, Far Future Enterprises. All Rights Reserved.