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The Fleet Ship designs, strategies, and tactics.

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  #1  
Old July 9th, 2004, 03:50 PM
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All this discussion of IN, Vs Sector reserves, Vs Subsector Navies and their various construction and roles has gotten me thinking.

The T20 combat system for Capital ships is broken.
(If you don't believe that I will be more than happy to explain how, suffice it to say that a Spinal Meson mount has a 52.5+% chance of killing anything upto and including 8 million tons outright with one hit and a factor 9 Meson bay has a 30% chance of killing any published ship outright with one hit.)

What is your fix to the rules?

My patch is to remove the +5 critical threat range from spinals and limit all starship weapons to a maximum of x2 crit multiplier. I am also seriously considering eliminating Gunnery as a skill. What do you think of my fix?
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Old July 9th, 2004, 04:02 PM
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Every other D20 sci-fi game I own (Star Wars, Dragonstar, Stargate SG-1) uses BAB modified by Dex for their ship-based weapon combat, as an extension of ranged combat.

Personally, I'm considering House Ruling it to BAB modified by Int for anything that requires sensors or forward observers to target effectively.

I do like limiting the crit threat ranges to something reasonable (at most 18-20), with a crit multiplier of x2. (Notice that all D20 weapons in the SRD give either increased crit range OR increased crit multiplier, not both.)

Although we haven't really discussed the specifics, I'm in agreement with your general statements, at least.

Hope this helps,
Flynn
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Old July 9th, 2004, 04:17 PM
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I had proposed a Gunnery Attack Bonus, separate but equal... if you wielded it by hand, it was BAB, if you wielded it through a mechanical linkage, computer interfaace, or remote mount, it was gunnery, with specific feats similar to the way weapon proficiencies work.

It was not well recieved.

To be honest, the +5 threat range bugged me. as did he flat 16d.

Best solution for spinals, IMO, is just ignore thse two tidbits. Thus spinals are simply doing USP D__. Yes, a spinal can then carve up some really big things, but I think the Structural hit poitns are too low for bigger vessels; the damages were not reduced when the playtest shifted from tons of damage to SI.
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  #4  
Old July 10th, 2004, 09:29 AM
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The problem with making gunnery use the BAB instead of making it a seperate skill means the Marine Gunners are so much better than Naval gunners. However if the Naval Gunners get "Martial Training" this pretty much closes the gap.

Traditionally, in the US Navy anyway, on the Battleships one of the gun turrets was crewed by marines. There was generally fierce competetion between turret crews and the Marines usually made better gunners, primarily due to pride, they refused to be allow a Squiddy to be a better marksman than a Marine, even if a 16inch gun isn't something you generally fire over open sights. [img]smile.gif[/img]

The +5 threat range makes sense on paper until you realize that a Meson starts with a 15+ Critical Threat Range. Which means it now crits on a 10!!!

With typical gunnery skill, a reasonable computer, and a weapon factor of more than 3, against typical targets you hit on a 2+. With Gunnery as a skill and the PMOS feat for gunnery you can Take 10 and never miss even hard targets and a spinal Meson Crits on a 10!

If you eliminate the +5 and reduce the damage multiplier to X2 there is at least a chance to survive one of these hits And there is a reason to build the DN.

Under the rules as written there is no reason to build a ship bigger than a Heavy Cruiser and then only if you want a multi-role ship. In most cases a Light Cruiser is more than enough. (ANd the "Strike Monitor" from TA7 is a very nasty customer.)

Destroyers in the 5Kton range can mount a 100ton Meson bay possibly 2, A squadron of these Destroyers can, in T20 easily expect to kill a pair of drednaughts for the loss of 1 destroyer. (If you manage two 100T Meson Bays they can kill 4 dreds for the loss of 2-3 Destroyers, (the other destroyers will likely be damaged by secondary weapons of the Dreds but even if they are all destroyed The Drednaughts still lose.))

Combat in Traveller is supposed to be deadly but but Drednaughts not being able to stand up to ships 1/100th their size is ludicris. A Squadron of 8 destroyers is about 40,000 tons. A Drednaught is at least 200,000 tons, and we are talking about taking on 4 of them with 40,000 tons of destroyer and killing all of the Drednaughts and living to tell the tale.

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Originally posted by Aramis:
I had proposed a Gunnery Attack Bonus, separate but equal... if you wielded it by hand, it was BAB, if you wielded it through a mechanical linkage, computer interfaace, or remote mount, it was gunnery, with specific feats similar to the way weapon proficiencies work.

It was not well recieved.

To be honest, the +5 threat range bugged me. as did he flat 16d.

Best solution for spinals, IMO, is just ignore thse two tidbits. Thus spinals are simply doing USP D__. Yes, a spinal can then carve up some really big things, but I think the Structural hit poitns are too low for bigger vessels; the damages were not reduced when the playtest shifted from tons of damage to SI.
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Old July 10th, 2004, 09:50 AM
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BTW you don't need more than 16D20 of damage to carve things up. Especially with a crit mod of x10!

The SI damage alone from a Spinal Meson critical hit averages 1680 SI points of damage. An 8 million ton ship has 1700 SI. A 400,000 ton ship has 825 SI. If you do twice the SI damage to a ship then it is utterly destroyed. A good roll will kill a Tigress. (You only need to do 20 points above average. (Or 2 points before the x10 multiplier.)

That doesn't include the 16D12 radiation damage which may or may not get multiplied by 10 and may or may not do SI damage. (The rules aren't exactly clear on either of these points.)
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Old July 10th, 2004, 08:00 PM
Michael Taylor Michael Taylor is offline
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I've got a really good fix. I use High Guard ship combat rules with T20 designed ships. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I simulated the Solomani fighting ship TA battles with the above combination. It was deadly, but at least capital ships survived more than 1 round.
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Old July 11th, 2004, 08:00 PM
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So you ignore SI. How do you translate gunner and pilot skill, Ship and Fleet Tactics Feats? How do sensors work?

I always used the Mayday rules with the Highguard gunnery tables and made missiles 1 turn flight time because the High Guard rules were a bit too abstract for me.

Quote:
Originally posted by Michael Taylor:
I've got a really good fix. I use High Guard ship combat rules with T20 designed ships. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I simulated the Solomani fighting ship TA battles with the above combination. It was deadly, but at least capital ships survived more than 1 round.
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Old July 12th, 2004, 01:08 AM
Michael Taylor Michael Taylor is offline
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Ship and fleet tactics skills (not feats - I play CT) assist as positive DMs in winning initative.
Sensors are approximated in HG by the relative computer sizes of each ship being a positive or - DM to hit.
Gunnery skill is a + DM to hit for a battery.
Pilot skill is a - DM to hit (along with agility of course).
The last two aren't in HG of course, but they make sense in small ship encounters, and it works well.
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Old July 12th, 2004, 11:57 PM
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True but yousaid use the CT rules in T20. So translation is required. I have CT, have played for years. Love using the Mayday maps, vector maneuvering and HG charts for combat. But I am asking about a fix for T20 combat.

Quote:
Originally posted by Michael Taylor:
Ship and fleet tactics skills (not feats - I play CT) assist as positive DMs in winning initative.
Sensors are approximated in HG by the relative computer sizes of each ship being a positive or - DM to hit.
Gunnery skill is a + DM to hit for a battery.
Pilot skill is a - DM to hit (along with agility of course).
The last two aren't in HG of course, but they make sense in small ship encounters, and it works well.
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