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In the OTU In the Official Traveller Universe. Any milieux that's been published in any edition. Not for discussion of rules except in reference to how they reflect the OTU

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  #81  
Old April 18th, 2021, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Condottiere View Post
1. We know Apple tends to screw us with as cheap as possible components, but we'll assume their Jump Programmes are as simply elegant as it's possible, making the most efficient use of resources.

2. It comes down to a comparison between a technological level seven eighty megahertz sixty four bit manufactured on what, six micrometres?

3. And a technological level eight thirty two bit underclocked RISC processor at four hundred and twelve megahertz, manufactured at probably forty five nanometres?

4. Against the current Twelve model, with CPU Hexa-core (2x3.1 GHz Firestorm + 4x1.8 GHz Icestorm), at I'll assume five nanometres?
Ok, take out your smartphone.

Now use it to solve the precession around the Earth for a satellite in geostationary orbit due to frame dragging.

And I don't mean just google the answer - find an app that solves general relativity equations and enter the parameters.

I will wait for your answer...
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Old April 18th, 2021, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
I keep reading this stuff, that a smart phone can do such and such....

A smartphone can not solve the same problems that a supercomputer is used to solve, and plotting a jump through a hyper dimensional space would most certainly require a supercomputer.
While I agree with you, Mike, the problem is in the rules. CT says a Model-1 computer can compute J-1. A Model-1 is TL 5, pre-1940s technology. So if you go strictly by the book, then calculating J-1 must not be very challenging. That is why I house rule it can be a Model-1, but it has to be TL9 to calc a J-1. In my experience this isn't an issue for players.

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2. A slight overclocking of an existing computer, the bis variant, allows you to calculate a jump factor two, at technological level seven.
I don't dispute J-2 is calculable today RAW. It's J-3 that is impossible. If you intended to write that we have Model-2 bis computers today, there I must disagree. I'll believe we are in TL 8 when I have an air/raft parked in my garage and fusion power plants power my house. We are just barely getting solar power to be economical: clearly the world is still TL 7.
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Old April 18th, 2021, 01:01 PM
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A TL9 model 1 is 1 ton

how big is a TL5 version? I know the table says 1t but is this correct if a TL9 version is 1t and a TL11 version is 0,5kg?

We know that at higher TLs a model 1 is the size of a laptop - so why not use those in ship construction?

Quote:
Hand Computer (1 1) Cr1000. Provides services of a small computer (equivalent to Model 1) in computing power), plus serves as a computer terminal when linked to a larger computer (such as on board a ship). Weighs 500 grams.
Quote:
Computer, Hand (TL11): Provides services of a supercomputer (equivalent to Model 1 in computing power), plus serves as a computer terminal when linked to a larger computer (such as on board a ship).
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Old April 18th, 2021, 02:09 PM
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1. I didn't think anyone would make a challenge on this, but, okay:

Auto-Plotted Jumps

For unknown reasons, automated jumps are prone to an increased risk of misjump. A jump plotted by the automatic systems without the involvement of a sentient astrogator is subject to the same DM-4 as all other fully automated actions. For this reason, if just one skilled crewmembers is carried it is usually an astrogator. A jump plotted in semi-automatic mode by someone without the Astrogator skill but with a basic understanding of the concepts involved suffers DM-2. It is thought that a machine will produce several apparently equal solutions to the same jump plot and cannot distinguish between them but a sentient mind somehow ‘feels’ which one is slightly better than the others. Even someone who is not a trained astrogator can do this to some extent and if one is available they can oversee the plot. Their Astrogator skill applies in this case and the DM-2 is not suffered.

Attempting to send a ship through jumpspace without people on board enormously increases the risk of misjump, for reasons unknown. In addition to the DM-4 for the autoplot, a vessel suffers an additional DM-4 if there are no conscious minds aboard. Low berth passengers are by definition not conscious and experiments with highly intelligent but non-sentient minds have produced wildly differing results.

pages 236-7 ALIENS OF CHARTED SPACE VOLUME 2



2. Just because you can user older hardware to process newer programmes, doesn't mean that those programmes are available at that level of technology, for whatever reason, canon or otherwise, the game provides.

3. Jump control one is listed at technological level nine, and jump control two at eleven.

4. However, for prototype jump drives, and especially early variants, you couldn't use them at lower technological levels, if the programmes used to activate them weren't available then, and of course, the requisite computers.

5. We could assume that these would be early prototype versions of these programmes, for what could be referred to as alpha and beta testing.

6. The complexity of a jump control one programme appears to be the same as fire control one, both available at technological level nine and requiring the same bandwidth.
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Old April 18th, 2021, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
Now use it to solve the precession around the Earth for a satellite in geostationary orbit due to frame dragging.

And I don't mean just google the answer - find an app that solves general relativity equations and enter the parameters.
Now you're talking about availability, not capability.

This may well be possible on a smart phone, but there's no demand for such software on the smart phone to do such a task.

Maybe it is impractical on a smart phone, I have no idea.

I don't know what all the greek variables mean, but the math presented in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame-dragging seems straightforward.
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Old April 18th, 2021, 02:40 PM
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More importantly, whether it is literally an iphone that can do the job is a red herring. For the sake of argument, grant Mike that we need a laptop. So what? We are getting caught up in the rhetorical flourish and missing the point which still stands that RAW jump-1 is a TL 5 computer problem, ergo its not that complicated.

But a lot of these critiques of traveller computers dissipate if we just assume jump math is complicated and only TL 9+ devices can do this undefined calculations with new undefined computing technologies.

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Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
A TL9 model 1 is 1 ton....We know that at higher TLs a model 1 is the size of a laptop - so why not use those in ship construction?
I guess this is directed at me? the IMTU answer is that ship computers are quantum computers required to perform jump space simulations - simulations because the math is so complex it can't be solved closed form but only approximated. Ship computer volume also includes all the ECM/ECCM hw, human operating space, 3x redundant systems, dedicated backup power and environment control, spares, work bench, blah blah blah to fill it up.
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Old April 18th, 2021, 03:05 PM
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And since we're quoting:

Computer Cores

Most capital ships and certain other vessels have multiple distributed computer networks spread throughout their decks, but always include a central computer core that controls the ship’s jump drive. These are extremely powerful computing systems with massive amounts of processing power available.

Processing TL Cost
Core/40 9 MCr45
...

The Processing score for a computer core is in addition to the processing power needed for Jump Control programs, and all Jump Control software is included in the price of the core. Other ship software must be added at extra cost as normal.


Which sort of trivializes jump control programmes computer processing powers, since I'll assume the technological nine model can easily deal with jump control six, though the textual implications are it automatically would know it, or at least, be included in any update.
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Old April 18th, 2021, 04:32 PM
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Going to dip my toes in here a bit as the computer conundrum is always interesting.

Say that the TLB Model 1 is a laptop sized, and has all the capacity of the 1dTon Model 1. I am just thinking about the cooling and raw throughput issues. It may be that laptop Model 1 has all the same programs as our 1 dTon friend, but to calculate the jump model would either take several months or require you to plop your laptop in some liquid nitrogen to keep cool as it overclocks amazingly well to be able to get you a jump model in time for the actual jump.

(there's an old story that we could predict 100% what the weather would be like in a week. It would just take us a year to calculate all the variables. May no longer be true but I think possibly applicable to this discussion)

Now if the laptop Model1 performs at the same processing speed and raw power and throughput, okay then. But my experience with our TL7 (8?) computers is that a laptop gives up some things for the form factor. While not quite as true as it used to be, and possibly no longer true with a 2 TL jump, it is something to think about.

(and takes my toe back out of the water. the computer conundrum is always fun and will never get answered happily for everyone. I am, BTW, a proponent of the big computers are okay opinion, but more than willing to listen to and accept other ideas even if they don't end up in my game. As that is my game )
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Old April 18th, 2021, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Condottiere View Post
1. I didn't think anyone would make a challenge on this, but, okay:

Auto-Plotted Jumps

For unknown reasons, automated jumps are prone to an increased risk of misjump. A jump plotted by the automatic systems without the involvement of a sentient astrogator is subject to the same DM-4 as all other fully automated actions. For this reason, if just one skilled crewmembers is carried it is usually an astrogator. A jump plotted in semi-automatic mode by someone without the Astrogator skill but with a basic understanding of the concepts involved suffers DM-2. It is thought that a machine will produce several apparently equal solutions to the same jump plot and cannot distinguish between them but a sentient mind somehow ‘feels’ which one is slightly better than the others. Even someone who is not a trained astrogator can do this to some extent and if one is available they can oversee the plot. Their Astrogator skill applies in this case and the DM-2 is not suffered.

Attempting to send a ship through jumpspace without people on board enormously increases the risk of misjump, for reasons unknown. In addition to the DM-4 for the autoplot, a vessel suffers an additional DM-4 if there are no conscious minds aboard. Low berth passengers are by definition not conscious and experiments with highly intelligent but non-sentient minds have produced wildly differing results.

pages 236-7 ALIENS OF CHARTED SPACE VOLUME 2



2. Just because you can user older hardware to process newer programmes, doesn't mean that those programmes are available at that level of technology, for whatever reason, canon or otherwise, the game provides.

3. Jump control one is listed at technological level nine, and jump control two at eleven.

4. However, for prototype jump drives, and especially early variants, you couldn't use them at lower technological levels, if the programmes used to activate them weren't available then, and of course, the requisite computers.

5. We could assume that these would be early prototype versions of these programmes, for what could be referred to as alpha and beta testing.

6. The complexity of a jump control one programme appears to be the same as fire control one, both available at technological level nine and requiring the same bandwidth.
That's MgT, yes? I tend to discount MgT for OTU discussions since it is usually badly researched and incompatible with previous canon. MgT appears to makeup stuff that is not canonical for the OTU, but that's ok since the MgT universe is an ATU.

A scout does not have a navigator, an x boat has no navigator in fact no ship needs a navigator until it is larger than 200t - these are OTU facts.

Canonically a ship needs a jump cassette or a generate programme.

You can build a robot using LBB8 that can have pilot and navigation 4 - plus it can carry the jump cassette or generate programme from storage to the computer. Pretty sure there was an robot pilot in the 101 robots DGP supplement.
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Last edited by mike wightman; April 18th, 2021 at 07:34 PM..
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Old April 19th, 2021, 09:45 AM
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The MongoVerse is the current edition, and if it were MegaTraveller, I'd be quoting from there. They deliberately avoid the fork in the road that kickstarts the Rebellion, so unlike GURPS, can't really be accused of speaking with forked tongues.

It does make you wonder how any later robotic rebellion can spread, unless sentience onboard a starship and astrogation at that stage would include artificial intelligence.

Which leaves us with the King Marc Bible: what does Tee Five have to say about empty hexes?
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