Citizens of the Imperium

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-   -   [SBRD] OOC Discussion: Chapter 01 (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=30671)

SpaceBadger September 8th, 2013 01:22 PM

OK. While we are at it, could you scroll up a few and look at post #423 and let me know if Doc is usually carrying, and if so, what? Thanks.

Also, combat stuff look reasonable? (#425)

Fritz_Brown September 8th, 2013 02:04 PM

OK, bringing this over from the IC thread:
Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceBadger (Post 452191)
I think we specified it was 1/4 ton containers - each 1.5m3. So that would be more containers to handle, but easier to fit them into available space.

It won't be easier to fit in unless the cargo hold has a 5m ceiling. Then we could stack 3 high. Otherwise, it will actually take MORE handling to get in those containers into the same space than it will standard height ones (that are 1.5m x 1.5m floor space) - because they will *have* to be stacked. (When I talk 1/2dT containers, they are assumed to be 3m high, and 1.5m square in the horizontal. Unless you want to do all the math associated with wasted space, but then you will have to re-figure what the *real* cargo volume is and all that jazz - back to Architects and Stevedores In Space!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceBadger (Post 452191)
Maybe some kind of frameworks to lock them together to keep the load from shifting...

I was taking that as a given. Though most folks never think about it, a cargo hold deck is going to have tie-downs and locking latches all over. (You will NOT be able to roller skate in there, unless all the tie-down points have been covered, etc.) Otherwise your loads will shift - or get bumped, or settle, or whatnot - and you will have a disaster. If you are going to stack containers, however, they will have to have built-in latches on them that will latch the upper container to the container below. There will then likely also be a cargo strap to make it more secure. (It's why I say it will require more work to use half-height containers.) Another assumption was that they would be butted up against each other (with some sort of space between some of them to allow movement - maybe every 5-7m or so) to increase stability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceBadger (Post 452191)
EDIT: Also, no one is "nudging" these forward in line; they require individual handling. I don't recall what you computed for me as the mass of one of those cubes, but even with a built-in grav unit to take off part of that effective weight, these suckers are heavy.

Someone should be "nudging" them. That doesn't imply that one of us is pushing it ahead, nor that it doesn't take effort. It means that as each one is loaded, the next one in line is moved into position, then the next one is moved to #2, then the next is up to #3, etc. The grav lift has one important job - remove the friction component of the equation. Yes, there is still inertia to overcome with the mass. However, with that grav lift engaged, a cargo bot could easily push it forward one space.

So, you have two cargo bots and the cargo system in the bay, plus the mine "forklifts". The bay system is handling whatever is the #1 container in line, moving it into position inside the bay. The cargo bots move #2 and #3 up one space in line, then run back and move #4 and #5 up in line. Meanwhile, the forklifts are moving containers into the #5 position. Then you repeat.

There are variations on that, but they work out about the same. the idea is to have each portion of the system actually moving cargo forward constantly.

(BTW, If there are locking mechanisms that will attach one 1/4dT container on top of another, as long as the cargo bay system isn't actually lifting them once they are connected, then you should be able to stack them in that #1 position and load 2 at a time.* (The connectors are stressed for compression and shear, not for tension.)

Using half-height containers will make this a 16+ hour job.

* Possible sequence: 2 containers in #1 position (two lines of 4 spots each)
- bay lift system raises one and puts atop the other
- human team locks the two together
- bay system moves them into position inside together
- cargo bots push both #2s into #1 position, then move back and push #3 up to #2, then #4 up to #3
- "forklifts" move containers into #4 position

Alternate sequence: 1 line with two inputs at the tail end
- bay system grabs two stacked containers and puts them in their proper place
- bots push #2, #3, #4, and #5 up one spot
- "forklifts" stack two containers at #6 position
- humans lock them together
- "forklift" pushes #6 up to #5
- more forklifts feed #6 position with two containers for stacking

atpollard September 8th, 2013 02:27 PM

Max, weapons and combat.

Reality check, Max has Shotgun-0 skill and non-proficiency penalty (-4 IIRC) with any other weapon. Max will not carry any weapon under general circumstances. If he is expecting a high possibility of danger (like loading precious metals), then he will carry his pump action shotgun with a pistol grip and folding stock.

If actual shooting starts, Max will set his priorities as:
1. Don't shoot an ally.
2. Stay out of the way of any ally who knows what they are doing.
3. Shoot a bad guy if a shot becomes available.
4. If a friend (crew member) is in trouble, Max will accept high personal risk to attempt a rescue.

SpaceBadger September 8th, 2013 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fritz_Brown (Post 452234)
It won't be easier to fit in unless the cargo hold has a 5m ceiling. Then we could stack 3 high.

I was actually going to gloss over that (as you note below, this is an adventure game, not a cargo-handling game, except to the degree needed for verisimilitude and feeling "in the world". I was just planning to rule that two 1/4 ton containers could stack in one "half ton" square. Unless anyone really wants to make it more difficult than that? ;)

Re tie-downs, latches, etc, yes, I agree on all that. Was just thinking something a little more might be good when stacking big heavy cubes on top of big heavy cubes - either additional framework, or something like you suggested latching each cube to the ones above, below, and around it to lock them all together.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fritz_Brown (Post 452234)
Someone should be "nudging" them. That doesn't imply that one of us is pushing it ahead, nor that it doesn't take effort. It means that as each one is loaded, the next one in line is moved into position, then the next one is moved to #2, then the next is up to #3, etc. The grav lift has one important job - remove the friction component of the equation. Yes, there is still inertia to overcome with the mass. However, with that grav lift engaged, a cargo bot could easily push it forward one space.

I think our different ideas here are due to a different perception of what the grav unit built into each of these containers is actually doing. I guess even in Traveller I just can't bring myself to completely ignore mass. A solid cube of Lanthanum of 1/4 dTon volume has an ungodly mass, surely more than two or three air-rafts all added together, and I just can't see that tiny grav unit (which is small enough that we are ignoring its volume in simplifying these nice 1/4 ton cubes) being able to completely negate the effective mass. My idea is that the grav unit negates enough of the mass that the full container can be efficiently moved around, but it is still one bloody heavy box of metal!

Now with that mental image, I think you might agree that nudging or scooting is not the most efficient way to move these. They each require handling by a heavy-duty forklift that is counter-weighted on the back so it doesn't tip forward when lifting them. You want to pick up and handle them as few times as possible.

So either you have two ant-like lines of forklifts, one carrying cubes into the cargo bay and another line of empties going back down the mine for another cube; or else you have some forklifts from below bringing them up and lining them up alongside the landing pad, then another two or three each picking up one of those and carrying it inside to where it is set down in place to be fastened. I dunno if even your built-in hoist and track system could move these puppies around, I think it might be damaged in trying.

Or maybe more efficient, you have some bigger carrier that can bring multiple cubes up out of the mine, then forklifts take the cubes off and set them in the ship's cargo bay (sorta like unloading big round haybales). While one carrier is being unloaded, another one goes back into the mine for another load.

(The ship's little cargo-bots would squeal like Wall-E and run away from big heavy cubes like that! :D )

SpaceBadger September 8th, 2013 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atpollard (Post 452239)
Max, weapons and combat.

Reality check, Max has Shotgun-0 skill and non-proficiency penalty (-4 IIRC) with any other weapon. Max will not carry any weapon under general circumstances. If he is expecting a high possibility of danger (like loading precious metals), then he will carry his pump action shotgun with a pistol grip and folding stock.

Umm, I'm pretty sure all PCs get skill-0 with all weapons, just to avoid the non-proficiency penalties. I could personally see waiving that for a character that the player didn't want to have that advantage, but anyway it's there. If that is your choice for Max, that's fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by atpollard (Post 452239)
If actual shooting starts, Max will set his priorities as:
1. Don't shoot an ally.
2. Stay out of the way of any ally who knows what they are doing.
3. Shoot a bad guy if a shot becomes available.
4. If a friend (crew member) is in trouble, Max will accept high personal risk to attempt a rescue.

That all sounds perfectly reasonable for a guy like Max.

atpollard September 8th, 2013 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceBadger (Post 452177)
Max: I need to know what you had figured up as an amount to replace ship's parts supply or any other misc from Max, so I can mark that off as paid.

Aside from the stuff Henry bought (like the robot), Max only needed 26 credits for the new connectors on the drive plate ... everything else that Max did was part of the 33,360 credits for the Maneuver Drive.

Quote:

Future Reference: The port fees seem ridiculously low to me (Cr100? Really??). I will be taking a look at these, so expect them to be higher in the future - even if you come back to Devonia, you probably just got the advantage of someone's billing error this time.
I think they make their money on fuel which is more expensive than buying LH2 at TL 7. ;)

atpollard September 8th, 2013 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atpollard (Post 452078)
Max probably doesn't.
He was raised in a boarding school and shipped out with the Navy before turning 18.
It is probably one of many 'normal' things that he always wanted to learn but hasn't had a chance. Along a similar line, Max has skill-0 in Shotgun because he learned to use a shotgun on his previous ship but probably never had the general weapons familiarity training of most characters, so he has no skill (like the Doctor career) in most weapons.

Part of the price to be paid for high technical expertise at a young age ... no private life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by atpollard (Post 452093)
I would agree with all of this.
As the game unfolds, I would expect that Max would probably like to take advantage of this.

At one point SpaceBadger pointed out that Max had unspent character points to buy some of his skill-0 up to skill-1 if I wanted to do so before the start of the game, but I would prefer for Max to learn and grow over time as the game progresses.

I like playing characters.
I like the character interaction.
Growing up 9 minutes from downtown Manhattan (in northern New Jersey), I know of many people who never learned to drive. Living in Manhattan makes driving a car very hard to learn and somewhat pointless since there is almost no parking except $25 per hour lots and abundant mass transit.

I imagined Max as one of those people who lacks many common skills due to his background. This serves as justification for a 25 year old with Engineering-3 and Steward-2 when Engineering-2 and Steward-0 or, maybe, Steward-1 would IMHO be more age appropriate. The character vision justification reflects someone whose life to this point has been narrowly focused to service to the state. Max is only now struggling to discover who he is as a person.

Of course, the story to this point has kept Max a little too busy to focus on learning to drive the air-raft, or shoot a pistol or check out a really cool grav bike (although Max might be more tempted to tear down and examine the internal details on how a high performance miniature grav drive works than learning to actually drive it - that's why he is an engineer rather than a pilot.) ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceBadger (Post 452244)
Umm, I'm pretty sure all PCs get skill-0 with all weapons, just to avoid the non-proficiency penalties. I could personally see waiving that for a character that the player didn't want to have that advantage, but anyway it's there. If that is your choice for Max, that's fine.

That all sounds perfectly reasonable for a guy like Max.

Yup, it was a personal choice to fit the character's concept ... perhaps one of the ship's 'gun nuts' could teach Max to shoot after the ship gets caught up on maintenance.

SpaceBadger September 8th, 2013 03:26 PM

Bumping so I can try to get this finished:
Quote:

Originally Posted by SpaceBadger (Post 452180)
Updating Ship Document:

I plan to update the ship document on several issues, then upload a new PDF (same filename as previous) and also put it on the Wiki. Before I do that, I want to let y'all know what is on my fix-it list, and ask if you have anything else that needs fixing on it.

1) adding Security Station to deckplan

2) adding Donoma to crew list

3) updating p.12 to say that M-drives are now up to standard on maintenance

4) also on p.12 showing Upper cargo-bot as fixed (even though not done yet, it will be trivial repair w that junked one)

5) Arthur, I think you mentioned having J-drive and PP both up to standard, but how did you handle that in your maintenance spreadsheet? How was it paid for? Just move that maintenance debt over to another area of the ship?

7) Anybody have any other issues w current Ship document? If so, please let me know so I can fix and upload all at once.


DaveChase September 8th, 2013 04:07 PM

Doc does not carry armament (and sorry I didn't reply sooner, I missed me in that post)

Doc does carry typically when dressed and either going out or working on the ship:
the smaller diagnostic handheld, a deck of cards, 200 Cr, sunglasses, ID, and a small pouch with a few drugs and high tech applicator for them, basic suture kit with a few sutures, latex gloves (2pair), ships communicator or commdot what ever is typical and issued and depending on the weather a hat and coat.

The drugs are
Headache medication (several doses)
quick acting numbness (a few doses)
anesthetic swab pads (a handful)
knockout drug (fast acting sleeping) (3 doses)
medical slow (1 dose)
pain medication (4 does)
Liquid band aid spray (a few small wounds worth)
and room for 4 doses of other medicine based on passenger needs, like diabetic, motion sickness, etc

Note: when dressed or working or going out.

An example when he was awaken about the jump sickness he just grab his larger treat almost anything handbag size kit that is kept by his quarter's door.

He has a larger backpack size Paramedic/EMT bag that has lots more in it also but that is not carried or taken unless planned for or called for. (He also checks it once a month to make sure it is still full and updated.

Doc does not carry weapons.

atpollard September 8th, 2013 04:09 PM

Quote:

5) Arthur, I think you mentioned having J-drive and PP both up to standard, but how did you handle that in your maintenance spreadsheet? How was it paid for? Just move that maintenance debt over to another area of the ship?
The ship's description listed certain areas of the ship as specifically being maintained in the background text ... Like the weapons. These areas just got a free pass on annual maintenance costs based on the assumption that the previous captain had paid for the maintenance before the mutiny.

Engineering was described in the narrative as having been neglected, but in the process of getting caught up. I simply interpreted that to mean that critical systems (those likely to kill everyone via a misjump) had also been brought up to date ... either under the old captain or in the last 4 months under the new captain or both ... but before the start of the game in any case. I simply assigned no past due maintenance to the PP or JD.

Important, but not lethal systems, like the MD were assigned a 1 year annual maintenance assessment (making them due for maintenance at the start of the game).

Non-critical systems, like the cargo bay and small craft hangar, were assigned a 2 year annual maintenance assessment (making them a full year overdue on maintenance at the start of the game.)

Does that answer your question?


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