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  #21  
Old September 15th, 2017, 07:10 PM
AnotherDilbert AnotherDilbert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
Can "Help line up a shot" and dodging be done simultaneously?

I know rules don't talk about it, but "giving the gunner a stable paltfaorm" and dodging seem quite contradictory to me...
Yes, it is no more ridiculous than dodging light-speed attacks.
You can even dodge and dock with another vessel in the same round...


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Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
As this is clearly not applicable to HG barrages (that represent many weapons at once), I assumed the HG FC programs were, as their computers, more powerful.

THis gives a clear advantage to fighters, if they divide on small flights...
Yes, this is an advantage for ships with a single weapon, whether turret, bay, or spinal.



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Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
True, but quite ill defined.

As an example. are they affected by distance or by target size?
It's well-defined, but not very detailed. It's all there in two paragraphs. No, distance and size doesn't matter.


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Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
IMHO single weapons attacks should be handled by CB rules, not by barrage ones.

Using single weapon attacks as barrages makes them far too powerful.
I had to re-read the rules. And then re-read them again. My head hurts.

Unless the Referee force your hand barrages are a choice. There is no lower limit to a barrage except "At minimum, a barrage must include ten weapons of the same type* or all the weapons on the ship of that type if fewer are mounted". A ship can only fire a single barrage on each target. You can always choose basic attacks instead.

* I guess?

The damage system to be used depends on the type of firer and target.
If the target is small, we use the basic damage system (unless the damage is larger than hit points; ship destroyed).
If the target is capital the damage system depends on type of firer: small does basic damage, but capital does capital damage.

So the simple damage system in HG is only used when a capital fires a barrage on another capital. In all other cases the basic system in the core book is used, except select systems cannot suffer a third hit on capital.

Hence the fighters are always using the basic damage system on the capital, regardless if they use basic attacks or barrages. And the capital always uses the basic damage system on fighters. Which invalidates nearly all my calculations in this thread (I think the bay damage is correct).

I start to remember why I didn't like the MgT1 ship system...

Edit: Re-read the rules again. The above is probably wrong, depending on the value of "normal". Barrages against capital probably should use the simplified system... Mongoose seems to have a curious aversion to expressing rules clearly.


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Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
A two seat fighter with good FM firing against the Planet cruiser as in my first example (as we have the System Damage tables for it) could produce up to about 6 hull/Structure hits plus a System Damage roll, that could mean reducing its armor or destroy 30-40 turrets...
Nope? They would use the basic system, so look in the Damage - Effect table in Core p150 to translate that into Two single hits (and no hull damage). The capital ship will soon find itself without armour and sensors (but at least the sensors will be repaired most rounds).

Last edited by AnotherDilbert; September 16th, 2017 at 05:05 AM..
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  #22  
Old September 16th, 2017, 05:54 AM
AnotherDilbert AnotherDilbert is offline
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Let me try again:

The ship fires on a bunch of fighters: We can use barrage or regular attacks, but always use the Core damage system.

I will use "Help line up the shot", but not sensor locks, since quaintly the sensor DM is used to break locks, but not establish locks. Assuming a couple of ECM fighters mixed in, any locks are easily broken.

For fighters we use the 15 Dt reinforced fighter, but with a dual cockpit and 6 + 1 damage points.

No single hit on the damage table on Core p151 will more than inconvenience a fighter, so I will ignore then and go for instant kill by over-damage.

Bays:

A basic attack by a bay will do 9D average 36 (min 27, VHYield) damage. A single fighter is instantly destroyed.
Bays: -2[range] +1[software] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] = +1, hit on 7+ (58%), 12 attacks kill on average ~7 fighters.

A barrage attack on a convenient flight will do 12 9 3 barrage%, killing 12 fighters on 50% or higher.
Bays: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] +9[dice] -15[armour] -4[flight] = -3, killing an average of 6.75 fighters.

Barbettes:

15 basic attacks on a single fighter will do 4D average 16 (min 12) for trivial damage.
Barbettes: -2[range] +0[software] -0[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] = +2, hitting on 6+ (72%) is ~11 hits causing ~3 Hull hits, fighter survives, but half killed.
A barrage attack on a convenient flight will do 30 4 3 barrage%.
Barbettes: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] +4[dice] -15[armour] -4[flight] = -8, effect on a roll of 11+, killing average 0.6 fighters.
3 barrage attacks of 10 weapons on individual fighters will do 10 4 3 barrage%, killing the single fighter on 10%.
Barbettes: -2[range] +2[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] +4[dice] -15[armour] = -7, effect on a roll of 10+, killing average 3 0.17 ≈ 0.5 fighters.

The barbettes are not very effective, but the bays reliably kill ~7 fighters per round (~10 fighters at Very Long range). Using all software support (+2 on 8 attacks, +1 on 4 attacks) on the bays we can raise that to ~8 fighters (10.5 VL range) per round.


Fighters (let's assume 60 fighters and 5 ECM fighters to deny the ship sensor locks):

60 basic attacks
Turret: -2[range] +5[software] +3[skill] +1[aid] = +7, auto-hitting, for (3D-15) a ~5% chance of doing 1 hit, for an average of 3 hits, doing ~0.5 armour hits. Eh.
60 barrages
Turret: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] +3[skill] +1[aid] +3[dice] -15[armour] = -3, effect on 6+, System damage on 11+. Average damage 72 and 5 system hits.
1 barrage as a flight
Turret: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] +3[dice] -15[armour] = -5, effect on 8+, System damage on 13+. Average damage 27.

Very Long range:
60 barrages
Turret: -0[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] +3[skill] +1[aid] +3[dice] -15[armour] = -1, effect on 4+, System damage on 9+. Average damage 104 and 17 system hits (around 2-3 armour making next turns attack better).


The ship will kill all fighters in around 9 (VL: 5) rounds regardless of flights or not.
The fighters kill the ship in 4 (3) rounds individually or 11 (4) rounds if grouped into a flight.
So the fighters win individually or lose in a flight.


(This is actually one reason I prefer to start at Distant range; it a slaughter at shorter ranges.)
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  #23  
Old September 16th, 2017, 06:10 AM
AnotherDilbert AnotherDilbert is offline
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Let's see what happens with McPerth's proposed rule: No armour dm for meson attacks.

The same ship as before, but with 24 small meson bays:
A barrage attack on a convenient flight will do 24 5 3 barrage%, killing 24 fighters on 10% or higher. (Note: mesons ignore hull, goes directly for structure)
Bays: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] +5[dice] -2[config] -4[flight] = +6, average damage 965, killing an average of 965 fighters, limited to 24 fighters by number of mounts.

A little too good?
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  #24  
Old September 16th, 2017, 06:45 AM
AnotherDilbert AnotherDilbert is offline
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From what I remember 40 Dt reinforced fighters should be good.

Something like this:

With reinforcement it has 13 hull + 2 structure = 15 damage points.

Edit: Oops, the barbette cannot be both smaller and have upgrades, it should be 5 Dt. Remove the reinforced structure to compensate, leaving the fighter with 13 + 1 = 14 damage points. Marginal impact...

At MCr 62 it is not very much more expensive than the 15 Dt light fighter, but requires a much bigger, hence more expensive, carrier. Let's say we get 40 medium fighters instead of the 65 light fighters.


Ship, Bays:

A basic attack by a bay will do 9D average 36 (min 27, VHYield) damage. As a rough guess we have at least 90% chance to kill a fighter outright.
8 Bays: -2[range] +2[software] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] = +2, hit on 6+ (72%), 8 attacks kill on average ~5.2 fighters.
4 Bays: -2[range] +1[software] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] = +1, hit on 7+ (58%), 12 attacks kill on average ~2.1 fighters.

Total 7.3 fighters per round.

A barrage attack on a convenient flight will do 12 9 3 barrage%, killing 12 fighters on 75% or higher.
Bays: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] +9[dice] -15[armour] -4[flight] = -3, killing an average of 5.8 fighters.

The added robustness does not decrease average kill all that much, the bays do too much damage...


Fighters, barbette:
40 barrages
Barbette: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] +3[skill] +1[aid] +4[dice] -15[armour] = -2, effect on 5+, System damage on 10+. Average damage 93 and 7 system hits.


The ship kills the fighters in 40 / 7.3 ≈ 5.5 rounds.
The fighters kills the ship in 284 / 93 ≈ 3.1 rounds.

The medium fighters defeat the ship, but are no better than the light fighters.

Last edited by AnotherDilbert; September 16th, 2017 at 06:59 AM.. Reason: Error.
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  #25  
Old September 16th, 2017, 08:28 AM
AnotherDilbert AnotherDilbert is offline
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What happens if we pit the light fighters against the medium fighters?

FL: 15 Dt, turret, 7 damage, MCr 45 + MCr 7 carrier = MCr 52 for comparison.
FM: 40 Dt, barbette, 14 damage, MCr 62 + MCr 18 carrier = MCr 80 for comparison.

Hm, carriers are cheaper than I expected. I used a 5 kDt J-3 hull with docking clamps for an estimated price.

So we get around 1.5 FL for each FM. Let's make it 30 FL vs 20 FM.


FL:
Basic vs single: -2[range] +5[software] -0[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] = +7, autohit, 28% to achieve 1 hit, so average 8 hits => 2.5 Hull
Barrage vs flight: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] +3[dice] -15[armour] -4[flight] = -9, effect on 12+, killing 1 FM on a roll of 12 for an average of 0.03 FM / round.
Barrages vs single: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -0[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] +3[dice] -15[armour] = -3, effect on 6+, can't kill outright. Average hits 30 1.11 ≈ 33 hits => ~10 Hull and 1 FM damaged not killed.


FM:
Basic vs single: -2[range] +5[software] -0[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] = +7, autohit, 55% to achieve 1.14 hit, so average 12.5 hits => ~4 Hull
Barrage vs flight: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] +4[dice] -15[armour] -4[flight] = -8, effect on 11+, killing 3 FL on a roll of 11 for an average of 0.39 FL / round.
Barrages vs single FL: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -0[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] +4[dice] -15[armour] = -2, effect on 5+, kills an FL on 8+, so 8 FL killed. Average hits 20 1.64 ≈ 33 hits => ~10 Hull and 1 FM killed. The poor target is really, really dead.
Barrages vs different FLs: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] +4[dice] -15[armour] = -4, effect on 7+, kills an FL on 10+, so 3 FL killed. Average hits 20 0.69 ≈ 14 hits spread over lots of targets, irrelevant.

So, the FLs kills the FMs in ~30 rounds, and the FMs kills the FLs in ~10 rounds. FMs wins decisively.

Again a barrage from each fighter is most effective. If you do not allow that things slow down, but the outcome is the same.


If we decrease the range to Very Long (or increase the skill):
FL:
Barrages vs single: -0[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -0[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] +3[dice] -15[armour] = -1, effect on 4+, kills on 11+. Average hits 30 1.61 ≈ 48 hits => ~15 Hull and 1 FM killed.
Spreading out the attack a little they will kill ~2 FMs per round.

FM:
Barrages vs different FLs: -0[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] +4[dice] -15[armour] = -2, effect on 5+, kills an FL on 8+, so 8 FL killed. Average hits 20 1.67 ≈ 33 hits spread over lots of targets, irrelevant.

So, the FLs kills the FMs in ~10 rounds, and the FMs kills the FLs in ~4 rounds. FMs wins decisively.


The barbettes with a +5 Fire Control behind each barbette are rather effective.
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  #26  
Old September 16th, 2017, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
Let's see what happens with McPerth's proposed rule: No armour dm for meson attacks.

The same ship as before, but with 24 small meson bays:
A barrage attack on a convenient flight will do 24 5 3 barrage%, killing 24 fighters on 10% or higher. (Note: mesons ignore hull, goes directly for structure)
Bays: -2[range] +5[software] +2[VHYield] -2[dodge] +3[skill] +1[aid] +5[dice] -2[config] -4[flight] = +6, average damage 965, killing an average of 965 fighters, limited to 24 fighters by number of mounts.

A little too good?
Another comment (I've just realized it): we all are assuming that the numbre of dice per weapon is added to the DM for barrage fire, but I don't find it anywhere now, and in the example in pages 74-75 (the missile salvo vs the Victory) it is not applied. Can you please remember me where is it told about

I still think to remember having read somewhere that it is used as a reduction to armour, not as truy DM, but I cannot find now anything about its use.

See that if this is the case, your meson bays barrage would not add it, s thre is no armour modifier, so the final modifier would be +1, making it quite less deadly...
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Old September 16th, 2017, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
Another comment (I've just realized it): we all are assuming that the numbre of dice per weapon is added to the DM for barrage fire, but I don't find it anywhere now, and in the example in pages 74-75 (the missile salvo vs the Victory) it is not applied. Can you please remember me where is it told about
p74:
Quote:
Barrages & Defences
Barrage attacks interact with defences slightly differently to normal attacks. Instead of reducing the damage directly, defences such as armour or sand provide a DM to the attack roll. Add up the protection offered by the defences, and then subtract it from the individual weapon damage score to determine the final DM.
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Old September 16th, 2017, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
p74:
Quote:
Barrages & Defences
Barrage attacks interact with defences slightly differently to normal attacks. Instead of reducing the damage directly, defences such as armour or sand provide a DM to the attack roll. Add up the protection offered by the defences, and then subtract it from the individual weapon damage score to determine the final DM.
TY, I was sure it was there.

Then, the mesons would not add their dice to the roll, as the defenses modifier is 2 (config), so overcame by the dice, but (again as I understand it) no more DM is applied for them, as neigher dodging nor the DM against fighter flights are in Defenses, but different DMs.

If so, final modifier for the mesons would be +3...
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Old September 16th, 2017, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
Then, the mesons would not add their dice to the roll, as the defenses modifier is 2 (config), so overcame by the dice, but (again as I understand it) no more DM is applied for them, as neigher dodging nor the DM against fighter flights are in Defenses, but different DMs.
?

Quote:
Add up the protection offered by the defences, and then subtract it from the individual weapon damage score to determine the final DM.
So the final DM is + ( Dice - Defences ), whether negative or positive. There is no maximum on this DM.
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Old September 16th, 2017, 07:10 PM
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You're right, and the fact there is no mention may be seen as you say, or it may be interpreted that the fact it dosn't espcify "even if negative" means it cannot be.

The explanation it gives for it in page 73:
Quote:
The damage from each individual weapon must still be noted, though, as armour is obviously much more effective against smaller weapons than larger ones.
makes me thing the second option, the dice are only used to overcome the defenses, not as additional modifiers. The effect of more dice in unarmored targets is given by the fact it is also a multiplier.

I must accept though that both interpretations may be right.

And I guess we found another errata in the fact this is not applied in the example...
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