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  #11  
Old September 14th, 2017, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Ghost View Post
One more question, is that from the basic rules or from the MgT equivalent of HG?
MgT1E High Guard.

On the basic Core Book ship combat is diferently handled, and barrages do not exist.
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  #12  
Old September 14th, 2017, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
But rules specify that combat begins at Distant. I gues that's due to sensor locking capabilities, as, as I said, the sensors at Long range are quite ineffective. Don't ask me how can they fire at long distance, I guess that's against already detected and locked fleeing units.
Quote:
If two vessels randomly encounter each other while travelling, the encounter will begin at Very Long range.
I think this applies more to tramp freighters than military operations.


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Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
Unfortunately, no sensor using rules are in the rules for combat (or at least I have not found them).
The sensor system seems simple:
Quote:
Compare the range something is to the sensing ship with the sensors being used and look up the result on the Detail By Sensors table (overleaf).
Core, p143.
Quote:
The Dice Modifier applies to jamming and counter-jamming attempts.
Core, p108.
No rolls involved, you see what is there.


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Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
As your cockpit is only 1.5 dtons, where is the gunner fit? According the small ship design rules (HG page 60) A cockpit takes 1.5 tons per crewmemeber .
In the turret, as usual?
Rechecking the rules a cockpit seems required for the gunner, despite having a perfectly good workstation in the turret.
That would reduce the 15 Dt fighter to 6 hull points, so 7 hull + structure.
Or 12 + 1 = 13 at 20 Dt and M-4.
A 40 Dt fighter can still have 13 + 2 = 15 hull + structure.
Reinforced hull does not work against mesons, so we are still vulnerable...


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Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
For small crafts, the damage is multiplied by 3, so the 5 fighers per sound for the bays would be 15 (in fact 12, due to the gunners limitations),
I think 5 fighters is correct:
A barrage at -4 does damage at a roll of 7+. For a roll of 7 it does 12 9 3 10% = 32 damage or 3 fighters, that roll has a 6/36 chance so contributes 3.2 / 6 = 0.54 fighters to the average. We only kill 12 fighters on a roll of 9+. Summing up all possible rolls I get an average of 5 fighters.


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Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
and the 1.7 from the barbettes would be 5 (see that this reduces de advantage of the reinforced hulls, at least against high dice weapons).
Sigh, yes that is wrong (again). As basic attacks they do basic damage. If they penetrate armour (55%) they do an average of 2.67 damage leading to an average of 1.14 hits on the damage table, leading to 1.14 11/36 = 0.35 Hull damage, or next to nothing.
The barbettes seem to be next to useless against reinforced fighters.


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Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
For the capital ships, you forget the System Damage, that is likely to reduce its offensive power.
The fighters would do one or two hits per round, I assumed they would be repaired at roughly the same speed. The impact would be minimal?


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Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
And remember that the fighters may also divide themselves into several flights, so reducing their losses against massive barrages...
Or even better, don't group into flights at all, forcing the ship to fire its bays as individual barrages with minimum software support.


Now I start to recognise the system, the reinforced fighters easily wins over ships.

We can squeeze out a little more damage with sensor locks and aid gunner...
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  #13  
Old September 14th, 2017, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
Quote:
If two vessels randomly encounter each other while travelling, the encounter will begin at Very Long range.
I think this applies more to tramp freighters than military operations.
Unfortunately it's not specified, and if theis is changed in HG I have not found it. That's why I guess its for sensors matter, as at Distant range they are quite poor...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
The sensor system seems simple:
Quote:
Compare the range something is to the sensing ship with the sensors being used and look up the result on the Detail By Sensors table (overleaf).
Core, p143.
Quote:
The Dice Modifier applies to jamming and counter-jamming attempts.
Core, p108.
No rolls involved, you see what is there.
It's a shame sensor rules are so poor (and their combat effect apparently nil) when there are so many ways to modify those inexistent rolls and tasks (stealth, better sensors, etc)...

I guess we found another errata here...

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Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
In the turret, as usual?
Rechecking the rules a cockpit seems required for the gunner, despite having a perfectly good workstation in the turret.
I have used CT and MT to design ships too, and in no case the gunner was assumed to enter into the turret tonnage, needing a seat in both versions.

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Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
The fighters would do one or two hits per round, I assumed they would be repaired at roughly the same speed. The impact would be minimal?
That would depend. If several wings attack at once, wach barrage does ssystem damage on a 8+. So if the 60 fighters attack as 6 10 fighter wings, they would do on average 2-3 such hits per round, and the capital ship may attempt one repair per section per turn...


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Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
Or even better, don't group into flights at all, forcing the ship to fire its bays as individual barrages with minimum software support.
Why minimal softweare support? As I understand them, the core computers apply their FC program to each and every fire, as they are assumed to be many computers linked.

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Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
We can squeeze out a little more damage with sensor locks and aid gunner...
I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean here...
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  #14  
Old September 14th, 2017, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
We can squeeze out a little more damage with sensor locks and aid gunner...
I'm afraidf I don't understand what you mean here...
I think he means that, since sensor locks add +1 to any attacks on a target, and other crew could (in theory) use the standard skill chain mechanic to add a bonus to a attack (e.g. a pilot (small craft) roll to "hold her steady for me" or, engineering (p plant) roll to "boost power to weapons" or somesuch, with the Effect of that roll as a modifier to the attack), you could add a bonus to the barrage roll and thus boost damage output.


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Why minimal software support? As I understand them, the core computers apply their FC program to each and every fire, as they are assumed to be many computers linked.
do you have a page reference for that? I can't see that in my copy of HG, and the standard FC program form the core book can effect up to its version number of attacks or one attack up to its version number (or some combination of those).

Clearly, a single barrage against one target counts as one attack (as shown in the example barrage given), but I'm not sure that a capital ship can apply the full bonus to every attack it makes, and if it splits its fire over multiple targets (like several dispersed fighter swarms), it will have to split its fire control bonus as well.
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  #15  
Old September 15th, 2017, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McPerth View Post


I have used CT and MT to design ships too, and in no case the gunner was assumed to enter into the turret tonnage, needing a seat in both versions.
It's been ages since I looked at the design rules (SFB gave me enough headaches), but I seem to recall that all you needed to do was assign a weapons' station to a hardpoint in more advanced design rules. A gunner was only needed, ISTR, with basic CT design.

Or am I completely wrong on that?

I bring it up because I recall that FASA's Chameleon had a six tube missile bay and a four triple turret PPC bay, each acting as a single barbette, but were controlled by a single gunner nested behind the missile launchers.
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  #16  
Old September 15th, 2017, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Ghost View Post
It's been ages since I looked at the design rules (SFB gave me enough headaches), but I seem to recall that all you needed to do was assign a weapons' station to a hardpoint in more advanced design rules. A gunner was only needed, ISTR, with basic CT design.

Or am I completely wrong on that?

I bring it up because I recall that FASA's Chameleon had a six tube missile bay and a four triple turret PPC bay, each acting as a single barbette, but were controlled by a single gunner nested behind the missile launchers.
In CT:HG you needed 1 gunner 100 dtons of spinal mount, 2 gunners per bay and 1 gunner per turret battery.

On larger ships, where staterooms and bridges (instead of cockpits) are used, people's space is asumed to be among them, not needing the seat specified, but in small craft each crewmember must be proivided a control couch and life support (one half ton and Cr 25000).
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  #17  
Old September 15th, 2017, 04:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xerxeskingofking View Post
I think he means that, since sensor locks add +1 to any attacks on a target, and other crew could (in theory) use the standard skill chain mechanic to add a bonus to a attack (e.g. a pilot (small craft) roll to "hold her steady for me" or, engineering (p plant) roll to "boost power to weapons" or somesuch, with the Effect of that roll as a modifier to the attack), you could add a bonus to the barrage roll and thus boost damage output.
Exactly. "Help line up a shot", Core p147. "Sensor Lock", Core p150.


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Originally Posted by Xerxeskingofking View Post
do you have a page reference for that? I can't see that in my copy of HG, and the standard FC program form the core book can effect up to its version number of attacks or one attack up to its version number (or some combination of those).

Clearly, a single barrage against one target counts as one attack (as shown in the example barrage given), but I'm not sure that a capital ship can apply the full bonus to every attack it makes, and if it splits its fire over multiple targets (like several dispersed fighter swarms), it will have to split its fire control bonus as well.
Exactly.
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Old September 15th, 2017, 04:32 AM
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It's a shame sensor rules are so poor (and their combat effect apparently nil) when there are so many ways to modify those inexistent rolls and tasks (stealth, better sensors, etc)...
We have Sensor Lock and Electronic Warfare on p150.


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Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
I have used CT and MT to design ships too, and in no case the gunner was assumed to enter into the turret tonnage, needing a seat in both versions.
Unfortunately for me that is true, I have apparently house ruled this unwittingly for ~35 years.



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Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
That would depend. If several wings attack at once, wach barrage does ssystem damage on a 8+. So if the 60 fighters attack as 6 10 fighter wings, they would do on average 2-3 such hits per round, and the capital ship may attempt one repair per section per turn...
In my example the fighters made 65 individual barrages at -4 needing a roll of 12 to cause system damage, for an average of 65 / 36 ≈ 1.8 hits per round.

I estimated that in 5 or 10 round the effect would be small.
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  #19  
Old September 15th, 2017, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
Exactly. "Help line up a shot", Core p147. "Sensor Lock", Core p150.
TY. Can "Help line up a shot" and dodging be done simultaneously?

I know rules don't talk about it, but "giving the gunner a stable platform" and dodging seem quite contradictory to me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xerxeskingofking View Post
do you have a page reference for that? I can't see that in my copy of HG, and the standard FC program form the core book can effect up to its version number of attacks or one attack up to its version number (or some combination of those).

Clearly, a single barrage against one target counts as one attack (as shown in the example barrage given), but I'm not sure that a capital ship can apply the full bonus to every attack it makes, and if it splits its fire over multiple targets (like several dispersed fighter swarms), it will have to split its fire control bonus as well.
Exactly.
In fact no, It seems I was confused by the fact the FC software talks about "firing weapons" (not even weapon mounts, so a triple turret requiring FC/3 to be fired by the software), not realizing the DMs talked about attacks, not weapons (in CB i understand they are the same, as each weapon fires indificually).

As this is clearly not applicable to HG barrages (that represent many weapons at once), I assumed the HG FC programs were, as their computers, more powerful.

This gives a clear advantage to fighters, if they divide on small flights...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
We have Sensor Lock and Electronic Warfare on p150.
True, but quite ill defined.

As an example. are they affected by distance or by target size?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
In my example the fighters made 65 individual barrages at -4 needing a roll of 12 to cause system damage, for an average of 65 / 36 ≈ 1.8 hits per round.

I estimated that in 5 or 10 round the effect would be small.
IMHO single weapons attacks should be handled by CB rules, not by barrage ones.

Using single weapon attacks as barrages makes them far too powerful.

A two seat fighter with good FC software firing against the Planet cruiser as in my first example (as we have the System Damage tables for it) could produce up to about 6 hull/Structure hits plus a System Damage roll, that could mean reducing its armor or destroy 30-40 turrets...
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Last edited by McPerth; September 15th, 2017 at 03:59 PM.. Reason: typos
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  #20  
Old September 15th, 2017, 03:21 PM
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Above posts have been moved from this thread to avoid hijacking it
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