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In the OTU In the Official Traveller Universe. Any milieux that's been published in any edition. Not for discussion of rules except in reference to how they reflect the OTU

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  #11  
Old August 14th, 2017, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Xerxeskingofking View Post
just re-read the Mgt 2e core book passage on misjumps. it is explicit in that time on a ship that misjumps can pass differently than time else were. I shall quote



so, for MgT at least, their is a explicit decoupling in time form the rest of the universe when in J-space.
Thanks!
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Old August 14th, 2017, 03:02 PM
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Thanks!
So....jump space is Narnia?
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Old August 14th, 2017, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xerxeskingofking View Post
just re-read the Mgt 2e core book passage on misjumps. it is explicit in that time on a ship that misjumps can pass differently than time else were. I shall quote



so, for MgT at least, their is a explicit decoupling in time form the rest of the universe when in J-space.
Hmm. There is an implication in that statement.

A) Time normally, when jump space travel is done correctly, correlates in both reference frames (The Ship in Jump space bubble and Normal space).

B) When done incorrectly, time CAN be accelerated for the reference frames and the jump space frames. The question becomes one of...

Are there any situations or circumstances, in which allowing time to accelerate within a jump bubble has any benefit? One thing that would be amusing is this:

Someone finds out how to reliably alter the time flow within the bubble, and jumps so that the ship's internals AGE by 4 centuries. The crew goes into low berth for the bulk of the time in jump bubble space, and then comes out with documents that are legitimately 400 years old. Or wine that has aged a given number of years, etc. Hmmm, pure speculation of course!



When I pulled out my PDF's for Mongoose Traveller and Book 2 from Mongoose, the only reference to a misjump is the main rule book page 141. I didn't see any guidelines for how misjumps are applied, and I'm guessing the throwaway line about trillions of years subjective time passing is strictly for flavor. GM's of course, and interpret that line to allow them to utilize a disparate time flow for jump bubble versus normal space - but those two books don't seem to give much guidance there. I'll keep looking at some of the other Mongoose PDF's that I have, but I don't think I'm going to find much of anything there. I'm going to have to see if I can find the section that details the accuracy of a jump, I know I read it somewhere, just gotta find it again.
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Old August 14th, 2017, 06:20 PM
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I was quoting form the 2nd edition rulebook, which obviously varies a little in places.

the only reference to jump accuracy in either of the MgT core books I can find is in the paragraph just above misjumps (same paragraph in both editions, wich says that a "inaccurate" jump "dumps the ship somewhere in the inner system, requiring a long space flight." 2nd edition, under misjumps, clarifies this as 100D-600D away form the target

also, jump masking is a thing in MgT, as seen in the paragraphs just after the Jump travel title. just after explaining the 100D limit, they make the point that a ship will precipitate out at the 100D limit of a star if it tried to jump "past" it.

thierfore, a MgT navigator would be trying to "hit" the targets 100D sphere, knowing that he will exit on that 100D line, regardless of how deep into it his aiming point actually is.
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Old August 14th, 2017, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Hal View Post
I'm going to have to dig up the MT relativity error issue.

To wit: did time pass such that the jump took LONGER, but time remained the same both in the normal universe and in the ship's confines while in Jump space, or did it introduce a temporal shift in the sense that the ship upon exit from Jump space, found that 7 days passed in its confines, but 21 days passed in the normal space universe.

Traveller: The New Era made some major changes such that it wasn't really recognizably the same "Traveller" as the CT stuff. But, be as that may be - we can look at anything and everything in this!

Thanks!
Most of TNEs changes to Jump Errors were expounding forth from the MT changes.

Note that MT's relativity Errors are not as clear cut as I would have liked...
Superficial: A jump relativity error occurs. The ship remains in jumpspace 1D+4 days (from 5 to 10 days) before emerging in the destination system, otherwise
unharmed.
Minor: A jump relativity error occurs, but when the ship emerges in the destination system, it is 1D times 8 hours from the destination world.
Major: A jump relativity error occurs. When the ship emerges from jump, it discovers that it has misjumped.
Throw 1D for the number of dice to throw. Then throw that number of dice for the distance (in parsecs or map hexes) the ship travelled. Finally, throw 1D for the direction of the misjump.
Destroyed: The ship is destroyed.
(MT-IE, p.93)
Doesn't specify whether time is synched or not.

Checking SSOM, it doesn't clear it up - but the wording therein leads me to "Baseline Reference Time is a Shared Constant between N-Space and J-Space" approach by Joe & Gary. (Note that in the real world, there appears to be no Baseline Reference Time. Either time slows or mass increases... but time slowing fits the cesium decay clock results better.)
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  #16  
Old August 14th, 2017, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xerxeskingofking View Post
I was quoting form the 2nd edition rulebook, which obviously varies a little in places.

the only reference to jump accuracy in either of the MgT core books I can find is in the paragraph just above misjumps (same paragraph in both editions, wich says that a "inaccurate" jump "dumps the ship somewhere in the inner system, requiring a long space flight." 2nd edition, under misjumps, clarifies this as 100D-600D away form the target

also, jump masking is a thing in MgT, as seen in the paragraphs just after the Jump travel title. just after explaining the 100D limit, they make the point that a ship will precipitate out at the 100D limit of a star if it tried to jump "past" it.

thierfore, a MgT navigator would be trying to "hit" the targets 100D sphere, knowing that he will exit on that 100D line, regardless of how deep into it his aiming point actually is.
I suspect I have a first edition PDF then.

Thanks for the clarification of second edition saying 1d6 x 100 planetary diameters. In taking a closer look at T5, I thought to myself that the scatter rules are HORRENDOUS.

Distance that you can scatter is range 12 (roughly 3 and a third AU's) plus or minus flux, which in turn can change the distance from .003 AU's to 1006 AU's!

Day yum!

Mind you, that's for a failed navigation scatter. *cough*

In any event, while MgT isn't the same as CT, and has introduced things that are more of a modern evolution from CT days (such as precipitation from jump space if intersecting a line with any object's 100 diameter radius while in jump space (assuming the object is larger than the ship). While that's a T5 thing (or so it seems, re-reading that stuff makes me sigh a LOT), and not necessarily a MgT thing, I find myself amongst those who object to the addition of it in game play. If things are immune from the normal space while in Jump Space, and the Jump bubble is isolated from Jump Space in the sense that it protects the contents within the bubble from Jump Space physics and destruction, then how exactly are we to now reconcile that masses in normal space leave shadows in jump space that precipitate a ship out. If T5 is to be believed, a ship's transit in Jump Space is relatively INSTANT in the sense that you enter jump space, and if a mass moves THROUGH any transit point before the ship exits out of jump space, the ship is precipitated out (again, assuming the mass is larger than the ship).

Elsewhere, it states that if you destroy the jump drive before the ship exits jump space, the ship STILL exits out into normal space after its duration is complete.

So, CT didn't have any of these game mechanics, and the jump initated free from any issues, made it through to the end. Only if at the exit point, did 100 diameters from the nearest object ever come into play. MT had some minor changes if I recall, but in the whole, it seems pretty much the same. I don't remember TNE that much, even having GM'd it for a time, and T4 was largely the same as MT if my recollection is on target. GURPS TRAVELLER when it introduced the issue of objects between the start and exit point could precipitate the ship out, made me think "STAR WARS" and was instantly ignored as GM. This is a JUMP drive, not a WARP drive (in my opinion, and in my traveller universe, that's all that counts *snicker*)

In any event, the "time disparity issue" comes into play. Just as time can slow around massive objects and such, I would expect that microsecond alterations in time can and likely do occur in the game. If a ship spends an extra 4 days in jump space due to a misjump, then it took not 7 days in normal space reference time, but also 11 days. So, it seems to me, that unless we can find something specific that says otherwise, it seems like time matches 1 for 1 with jump space.

My suspicion is this:

If there is even ONE thing out there that says time decouples in Jump Space from Normal Space and has game mechanics to back it up (that 4 Trillion years seems excessive and not backed up by any mechanics it seems) - someone will find it, months from now or even years from now. Just something to start people thinking about for their own campaigns and the implications thereof.
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Old August 14th, 2017, 09:06 PM
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is jump space a place?
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Old August 14th, 2017, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by aramis View Post
Most of TNEs changes to Jump Errors were expounding forth from the MT changes.

Note that MT's relativity Errors are not as clear cut as I would have liked...
Superficial: A jump relativity error occurs. The ship remains in jumpspace 1D+4 days (from 5 to 10 days) before emerging in the destination system, otherwise
unharmed.
Minor: A jump relativity error occurs, but when the ship emerges in the destination system, it is 1D times 8 hours from the destination world.
Major: A jump relativity error occurs. When the ship emerges from jump, it discovers that it has misjumped.
Throw 1D for the number of dice to throw. Then throw that number of dice for the distance (in parsecs or map hexes) the ship travelled. Finally, throw 1D for the direction of the misjump.
Destroyed: The ship is destroyed.
(MT-IE, p.93)
Doesn't specify whether time is synched or not.

Checking SSOM, it doesn't clear it up - but the wording therein leads me to "Baseline Reference Time is a Shared Constant between N-Space and J-Space" approach by Joe & Gary. (Note that in the real world, there appears to be no Baseline Reference Time. Either time slows or mass increases... but time slowing fits the cesium decay clock results better.)
So it seems we have the following possibilities for misjumps:

Temporal in the sense that the duration of the jump bubble and exit from jump space dimension is not the expected 168 hours (give or take), but can shorten the jump duration by 2 days, or extend it further up to another 3 days longer.

Spatial: the exit point is further away than planned (never closer). The problem with this is that the duration of time travel means what exactly? For a 1 G ship, the miss by 1 hour is a relatively short distance, as compared against a 6G ship's 1 hour.

I DO like Mongoose Traveller's concept that a failure by 2 or more means a failed task, and that a failure by 1 is a partial success. I'm guessing that the rules in Mongoose Traveller is such that a miss by 1 is when the distance is off, but a miss by 2 or more means the task failed and you have to try again.

Now if ONLY the people at Mongoose would commission someone to adapt FANTASY GROUNDS 2 over for use with Mongoose Traveller rules set. FG2 allows for the use of a professional package of Basic Role Playing rules (Call of Cthulhu mostly), D&D, and for those who have been lucky for someone to develop packages for other game systems like GURPS - GURPS. I don't know what is out there for Fantasy Games 2 (FG2), but if they ever get something for MgT, I might be willing to LEARN the game system well enough to run an online game campaign. Hell, I'm working now on incorporating aspects of the Spinward Marches into FG2, for a campaign using GURPS.

Ah well. If I do come up with my own "home brew" rules for scatter, I think I'd do something like this:

Jump Space entry requires at best, three rolls:

Navigator: rolls against skill. Failed roll means a Spatial displacement error. Success by a high margin means a really TIGHT solution that is accurate as best as possible.

Jump Drive Engineer: power fluctuations determine whether one is in the jump space the normal time, longer than, shorter than, or even drastically different than it should be for jump exit.

Piloting roll: a PERFECT approach for what the navigator required, means a perfect spatial solution. Failed piloting roll might indicate a minor spatial displacement, and a really badly failed piloting roll means that you threw the navigation calculations badly off.

Spatial displacements are minor = 1d6/2 AU's. Significant are 1d6 AU's, and really major issues result in 1d10 AU's displacement.

Measure THRICE, hit button once kind of think saves the bacon of the astrogator. Pilots get paid big bucks to be PERFECT when they're required to be. So, make their lives a bit tougher!

Jump Drive engineers get paid decently, so too should they potentially share in the faults involved.

Now, if that had been implemented from the start - I don't think we'd have seen the need to use Jump Masking or Jump Shadowing (which ever the correct term is) to insure a longer normal space journey. Just coming out 2 AU's out of position is going to do the trick!

This area however, is supposed to be reserved for OTU stuff, so I'll end my speculations here. Perhaps I should open up a thread in IMTU area on this?
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Old August 14th, 2017, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flykiller View Post
is jump space a place?
Per JTAS 24, it is multiple dimensions where entering a high energy dimension gets you further in the same time than a low energy dimension.

Kinda crazy when you get right down to it.

Why? A jump one ship, that misjumps, and gets a result that requires a 1d6 x 1d6 parsec misjump, could ultimately misjump 36 parsecs using only Jump 1 fuel requirements.

If it can be done by accident, eventually, it can be done by design. That however, seems to violate the basic principle of the Jump drive itself as far as Jump design goes. <shrug>

I'd rather see alternative methods of handling misjumps. Perhaps a spatial distance that is midway between where you wanted to go and where you ended up going. That would NOT violate the general design philosophy of the game, and it would make things dire for the players, and it would also give a smaller scope or area to search should someone try to set up a rescue mission that is searching for the missing ship. Heck, jump to various locations, leave automated radio receivers strewn about, and then have a crew whose job is to check these beacons from time to time to see if they get a hit. If they get a hit, then the search party can try to narrow their sweep area.

Ah well. Not OTU, but ideas for someone else's Traveller Universe.
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Old August 15th, 2017, 04:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
Meanwhile MT specifies 6-8 days, and implies time decouples on minor misjumps... via "Jump Relativity Error"... and has several layers more of misjump.
T5 lists in the BBB p373 a mishap where different amounts of time can pass on-ship to the rest of normal space.
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