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In My Traveller Universe Detail what parts of Traveller you do (or don't) use in your campaign.

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  #141  
Old August 4th, 2017, 06:32 PM
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There is a lot of rambling that follows - it is late but this thread fascinates me.

There are a few questions that I keep asking myself about this proposed setting:
why build all these rockets - why do you need to lift stuff into space?

LEO is the only place manned space stations can be put in order to prevent long term radiation damage to the occupants.
LEO stations can assemble stuff for moon and mars missions, trips to mine asteroids.

How much of a space based industry is built before the FTL drive is discovered?

What is in space that is so valuable the expense of doing this will return an investment?
Mining rare earths from asteroids and the moon perhaps? Copper for that matter. Alloys/crystals/semiconductors that can only be manufactured in freefall...

Is the FTL drive a scientific breakthrough by planet bound scientists or space based researchers? Could L points be tasked as jump zones instead of a 10D or 100D limit...

How many years in space before the FTL is discovered?

After a thousand years in space what would it look like?

I keep coming bac to space planes to get to LEO stations, rockets to do the heavy lifting. Rockets and ion drives to move between orbital zones and jump points. I picture the slow transfer ships as looking like great moths in space - wings of solar panels (and radiators) driving ion engines, while rockets are used for much faster transit for manned trips to and from the jump points (the ion drives would take too long and expose the crew to too much radiation over decades perhaps).

Jump ships to carry stuff from jump point to jump point both in system and intersteller. High ports built to service the jump ships.

How do you include PC scale tramp traders, how do you scout new systems?

Like I said - rambling
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  #142  
Old August 4th, 2017, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
[ . . . ]
How do you include PC scale tramp traders, how do you scout new systems.

Like I said - rambling
I think that some of Robert Heinlein's works might be a source of inspiration for this. He did a lot of stuff about civilisation spreading through the solar system and travelling around in interplanetary spacecraft. Granted some of his tropes won't have aged so well, but that's nothing new in Traveller.
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  #143  
Old August 4th, 2017, 07:00 PM
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Chem Rockets won't replace ion for interplanetary...

Ion is faster past a few light seconds.
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  #144  
Old August 5th, 2017, 01:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
[...]
You assume chemical rockets will keep being the best propulsion, others assume gravitics and yet others warp or whatever it be.
Actually, I assume that fundamental physics equations won't be outdated in a million years. The rest just follows from that.

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All are fine, all have their unique challenges and assumptions, and none of us can blame the others for not agreeing with us.
Uh. No one is blaming anybody for anything... still, accepting physics as we know them (mostly) and build our desired SF even with all that in place and have it being cosistent is a fun thing to do.
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  #145  
Old August 5th, 2017, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
[...]
There are a few questions that I keep asking myself about this proposed setting:
why build all these rockets - why do you need to lift stuff into space?
Because gravity well, in other words: Because of arbitrary limitations that I put on the FTL drive to make actually travelling through space required. (about 0.1 m/s˛ of local gravity, not more, is my current approach, as the setting is evolving - this is surprisingly close to a simple 5 diameter limit).

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LEO is the only place manned space stations can be put in order to prevent long term radiation damage to the occupants.
It is conceivable that strong magnetic fields can be generated on the ship as a means of radiation protection.

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[...]
What is in space that is so valuable the expense of doing this will return an investment?
Ore - and the option to do FTL out there.

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Mining rare earths from asteroids and the moon perhaps? Copper for that matter. Alloys/crystals/semiconductors that can only be manufactured in freefall...
Not to mention fuel and spaceships themselves, which can be manufactured in high orbits for much lower cost than on the ground.

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[...]
I keep coming bac to space planes to get to LEO stations, rockets to do the heavy lifting. Rockets and ion drives to move between orbital zones and jump points.
Using a 5D limit and cheap fuel, ion drives cannot be economical. They do offer superior delta V per reaction mass, but their thrust per weight ratings are so low that all the extra mass from the energy sources and thrusters only pays off on interplanetary journeys or satellites that are not maintained regularly - in other words, for very long journeys.

The same is true for the EmDrive, by the way - even if it works as claimed.

The FTL drive will be used for anything beyond getting to and from the jump point.

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How do you include PC scale tramp traders,
[...]
By making fuel and ships cheap, of course.
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  #146  
Old August 5th, 2017, 02:06 AM
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By making fuel and ships cheap, of course.
Which is bigger magic than the lack of heat sinks
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  #147  
Old August 5th, 2017, 02:15 AM
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Originally Posted by aramis View Post
Which is bigger magic than the lack of heat sinks
Not at all. Energy is freely delivered from the sun. All you need is technology to harvest it in sufficient amounts with few enough resources - which in the case of PV cells, for instance, is a function of the cells' lifetime. The same applies to production facilities, raw materials for which you can have your long-lived robots harvest from asteroids.
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  #148  
Old August 23rd, 2017, 12:41 PM
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Further thoughts: One could easily use regular OTU vessels as ships in this ATU setting, but a few considerations would be worth mentioning when building ships specifically for CR3I:
  • More than 1 g of acceleration for starships is basically useless.
  • It is probably always a good idea to select at least 50% of the vessel's volume as fuel tank size (which translates to about 90% of mass if you use hydrazine, kerosene or methane and assume that 1 dton is about 1 mass ton of the ship without counting the fuel there; that is equivalent to about 10,000 m/s of delta V).
  • Fighters do actually make a lot of sense in a CR3I, not because they would be terribly evasive (of course they wouldn't be, as delta V would be limited), but because having more little ships increases one's effective range and coverable area. The same, of course, applies for the larger battle riders.
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  #149  
Old August 23rd, 2017, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thot View Post
  • Fighters do actually make a lot of sense in a CR3I, not because they would be terribly evasive (of course they wouldn't be, as delta V would be limited), but because having more little ships increases one's effective range and coverable area. The same, of course, applies for the larger battle riders.
I'm afraid I fully disagree in this point. Battleriders make no sense when you need basically the same volume for fuel, as what needs fuel is not the jump.

In OTU, battleriders make sense because they save the volume a jump ship would need for fuel to be better armed/armored. One this is taken out of the equation, they have no advantage over battleships, while they keep all their disadvantage (lack of flexibility, need to be recovered before a retreat, etc...).

Fighters, are more dubious. They must be quite large to be effective:
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Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
Well, acelration is more important in space movement than pure speed, as is what allows you to maneuver, and the time you can maintain your acceleration is the time you stay manuverable...

A paylod to fuel ratio of 1:20 means that to have a turret (1dt) you need 20 dtons of fuel. Adding to this the rocket itself, power plant, cockpit, etc...

And all of this raises the mass, needing for a larger rocket (and so more fuel) if you want to have any acceleration...

See this MgT1E light fighter, but assuming the 1.5 dtons of the drone core is the cockpit (tonnage is quivalent in MgT1E HG), so that we don't enter in AI issues (as you asked).

It is 10 dton and has a payload (power plant, cockpit and turret, excluding MD as I guess it is included in the fuel for your rocket) of about 6 dtons (so about 60% of it is payload). To have this same 6 dtons payload, wiht your ration 1:20 you'd need a 125 dton, and its endurance and acceleration will be quite lower...

You could reduce the PP if you want to arm it with missiles instead of beams, but misiles also need payload, and it lowers still more the endurance, due to ammo problems, needing to return to the carrier (again, at lower acceleration) to rearm...
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  #150  
Old August 23rd, 2017, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
I'm afraid I fully disagree in this point. Battleriders make no sense when you need basically the same volume for fuel, as what needs fuel is not the jump.
[...]
Well, the idea behind CR3I battle riders would rather be to have a reserve and the ability to position your fleet more effectively. Also, you save the tonnage of the jump drive in your battle riders, so your effective delta V is higher, as the carrier can just stay at the jump point.

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Fighters, are more dubious. They must be quite large to be effective:
Well, make a 10 dton payload-fighter carry 90 dtons of fuel for a 100dton-vessel, and you are set.
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