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  #21  
Old June 11th, 2017, 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted by aramis View Post
Noting that KB comes away from the same text with different approaches.
I think you mean Keith Brothers?
I'm not familiar with their adventures. Can you describe how they handled Situation Throws? Can you point me at something that describes it?

Thanks!
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  #22  
Old June 11th, 2017, 02:04 AM
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Originally Posted by creativehum View Post
I think you mean Keith Brothers?
I'm not familiar with their adventures. Can you describe how they handled Situation Throws? Can you point me at something that describes it?

Thanks!
Nope. Ken B, IIRC, known round here as Supplement 4...
He finds a prototype task system in the CT rules.

RULE 68A - A Ref's Guide to the Classic Traveller Task System (COTI thread)
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  #23  
Old June 11th, 2017, 02:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
Nope. Ken B, IIRC, known round here as Supplement 4...
He finds a prototype task system in the CT rules.

RULE 68A - A Ref's Guide to the Classic Traveller Task System (COTI thread)
Thanks. Yes. I'm familiar with it.
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Old June 11th, 2017, 02:55 PM
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My objection was strictly with the term retroclone, Aramis already covered the issue in his post. Otherwise, please carry on.

Oh, and I haven't posted it yet, but I think I am going to an 8CG-critical system. This is where most routine tasks don't get a roll, or roll only to see if a natural 2 is rolled for some sort of glitch/error/part failure etc. If it's more then routine or the character doesn't have applicable skill, it goes to the appropriate level of roll.
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Old June 11th, 2017, 03:57 PM
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Aramis' definition is precise for him and that's great. It is also more narrow than anything else I've seen in the hobby. This does not mean he's wrong -- especially for his needs and concerns. But I know that per his definition a game like Lamentations of the Flame Princess would not be considered a retroclone of Basic D&D. Nonetheless, it is called a retroclone in every list of D&D retroclones I've seen. More importantly, the discussion of the labels bores me. What matters to me is what is in the box, rarely the word on top of the box.

To that end, here is the passage from The Traveller Adventure Mike referenced:
Quote:
Situation Throws: In the absence of any other guidance, the referee may always resort to the situation throw. When an incident first occurs, throw two dice to determine its relative severity. A low roll means that it is easy, a high roll means comparative difficulty. The number achieved is now the situation number. The player characters involved, when they attempt to deal with the situation, must roll the situation number or higher on two dice, They are, of course, allowed DMs based on any appropriate skills. Tools, assistance, and equipment may also provide beneficial DMs; weather, haste, adverse environment, or other handicaps may impose negative DMs. It is even possible for a referee to make the situation number greater than 12, thus making success impossible unless the players can provide necessary skills or tools with DMs to get their throw also above 12.

Example of Throws: An adventurer (46797A) has experienced a malfunction in the drive room of her vessel. The situation seems hopeless at the moment, and she is forced to abandon ship. The air lock hatch, however, is warped shut. A quick resolution to the problem is to state that she must roll strength or less to force it open. After several unsuccessful rolls, she casts about for a pry bar to help her.

The referee arbitrarily rules that the bar allows -4 on the die roll (the referee could guess or roll one die for the result).

On the next roll, the adventurer is successful; then she makes her way to the ship's locker for her vacc suit. Grabbing a survival pack, she proceeds to abandon ship. She knows that the drives cannot stand the strain much longer, and that she must get out immediately. The referee decides that the drives will explode on 9+ in the current turn, 8+ in the next turn, and so on, The referee decides that the character's last minute repair attempts have been partially successful, and he increases the needed roll by her level of engineering skill (Engineering-2) to 11+.

The adventurer needs to find a survival kit before she leaves the ship, but one extra turn will be needed to gather it up. The referee rolls to see if the ship explodes this turn (11+). It does not, and she grabs the survival kit.

On the second turn, she cycles through the airlock while the referee checks for an explosion again (10+ this time); once more the ship remains intact.

On the third turn, while the character is drifting away from the ship, the referee rolls 11 and the drives explode (9+ was needed).

The distress call from her radio attracts a local asteroid miner. He is required by custom and law to pick her up, but may net like being diverted to an unprofitable rescue mission.

The referee rolls two dice for his reaction: the result is 4. She must now convince him to take her to the local starport so that she can arrange salvage of her ship. She may add any applicable skills, such as streetwise, bribery, even DM -1 for Intelligence 9+ if the referee thinks this appropriate.

Obviously, in a situation such as this, repeated requests will not be possible (or they may be allowed at DM -1 per additional request). Probably she only gets to try once.

Even with DMs totaling -3, she rolls an 8, which does not convince the miner to go out of his way to help her. She is stuck on his ship until he finishes his prospecting run of (the referee rolls one die) 4 months. Judging by his reaction roll to her, he'll probably make her pay for room and board as well.
And here is the paragraph I referenced from the 1977 edition of Book 1 that was cut from all later editions of Basic Traveller:
Quote:
Skills and the Referee: It is impossible for any table of information to cover all aspects of every potential situation, and the above listing is by no means complete in its coverage of the effects of skills. This is where the referee becomes an important part of the game process. The above listing of skills and game effects must necessarily be taken as a guide, and followed, altered, or ignored as the actual situation dictates.
Now, when I read those passages back to back what I see is exactly what Mike wrote in the first post of this thread. What I don't see is Mike "essentially attempting recreate what may have been his misinterpretations from his youth..." as Aramis put it in his typical ridiculous manner.

Quick question: Per the passage from The Traveller Adventure, how many people here roll randomly to determine the value of the difficulty of a Throw? How many people use the Reaction Table? How many use the rolled value of the Reaction Table Throw to determine the difficulty of social interactions with an NPC? How many people went a whole session without concerning themselves with the example throws in the Skill descriptions? (Note that in the example from The Traveller Adventure not a single roll from those descriptions was used.)

My guess is very few people played Traveller the way the texts above suggest and very few people want to play that way now. And there's very good reason for this -- the most important one being that lots of people don't like it and don't want to play way. And so they shouldn't!

But that doesn't change the fact that what Mike describes in his first post on this thread is not some weird reading of the text.

If anyone wants to tell me specifically what he wrote that contradicts the actual text above (including the clause I've quoted that says to ignore the examples listed in the skill descriptions) I'd love to hear it because I'm really curious.

Short of that, as far as I can tell Mike is working to move back toward a certain kind of game play and rules application that would have been exactly what the original Traveller rules would depend on.
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Last edited by creativehum; June 13th, 2017 at 02:42 AM..
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  #26  
Old June 11th, 2017, 04:51 PM
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I got the use of the term "Pseudoclone" from several OSR-friendly discussion boards... at least one including the Author of LotFP.

True retros have little value. Which is why the distinction seems to have faded since it's early 2000's origins. But the term Retroclone still has numerous denotations as attempting to emulate a specific OOP ruleset, which is clearly NOT what Mike is aiming for - he's going for a play style reduced from that of the original. His changes change the scope of play. He's going for what looks to be a more narrative-driven, "Say yes or roll the dice" mode.
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Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
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Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
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Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
Marquis of the Solomani Rim (SOLO 0606)
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Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
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MCG - Battle of Boughene
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TAS: Bearer (DAIB 1326)
IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu± dt± f+ fs++ ge± ih- inf± j± jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
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  #27  
Old June 11th, 2017, 08:06 PM
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For the purposes of discussion - the clone distinction seems relevant.

Mike, at least in his initial post (not to mention other recent threads) suggests a clone that changes the original mechanics in the sense of using a subset of the example throws (critical resolution only).

It might also be relevant to call out what 'version' of Classic is being cloned - i.e. 1977, or the revised?

Last edited by BytePro; June 11th, 2017 at 08:18 PM..
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Old June 11th, 2017, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
...he's going for a play style reduced from that of the original. His changes change the scope of play. He's going for what looks to be a more narrative-driven, "Say yes or roll the dice" mode.
Awesome.

Can you (or anyone) tell me specifically what you consider the original scope? Can you point to this scope as defined by the original rules?

Can you tell me specifically how Mike's first post changes the scope as defined in the rules?

And Mike, since I don't know yet exactly what you mean by "players should role play and the referee and players only turn to the dice to resolve a critical situation," could you talk about that? (I think I know what you mean, but I'm not sure.)

Thanks!
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Old June 11th, 2017, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creativehum View Post
...As for the other 9 without doubt the examples fall outside the need of crisis... but as a Referee I'm not sure why I would introduce rolls outside of a crisis.
Creativehum - your earlier post did, at least to me, address '... how Mike's first post changes the scope as defined in the rules?'. Mike's first post seems to leave those 9 rules out of a proposed 'clone' - thus reducing scope of play, as aramis posted.

My 1981 (second edition) Bk 1 specifically calls throws 'Saving Throws' - though it doesn't use the critical situation only concept. I do seem to recall a Mongoose Traveller book referring to using throws as such. Personally, I have *always* played very much like Mike is proposing (and how your - most excellent thank you! - blogs relate to the 1977 rules).
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  #30  
Old June 12th, 2017, 04:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creativehum View Post
Awesome.

Can you (or anyone) tell me specifically what you consider the original scope? Can you point to this scope as defined by the original rules?

Can you tell me specifically how Mike's first post changes the scope as defined in the rules?

And Mike, since I don't know yet exactly what you mean by "players should role play and the referee and players only turn to the dice to resolve a critical situation," could you talk about that? (I think I know what you mean, but I'm not sure.)

Thanks!
The original scope appears to be largely procedural. There is a presumption of a narrative (but it's not called out in Bks 1-2-3), and a lot of procedural code to execute in specific situations.

Need a setting? Here's a procedure to generate one.
Need a character? Here's a procedure to generate one.
Need to know if he's being obvious cheating, here's the procedure for determining that. (Note that the gambling suspicion of cheating check doesn't get modded for the observer skill... only for the actual gambling skill used. There is an inherent implication that skill 5+ is cheating.

In D&D of the era, we have very few procedural bits: Combat, casting, character gen, castle building, experience/leveling. We instead have a raft of monsters, and a smallish bunch of assets for use in Char Gen. And a lot of blustery text with limited game application.

Traveller, by comparison, has procedures for
Character generation
Most skills have procedural chunks to use in certain (fairly common) situations
World Generation
Animal Encounter Table Generation
Random Encounters in overland mode
Law Enforcement Encounters in urban mode
Magic (aka Psionics)
Combat, Personal
Combat, Ships
Healing
Ship construction
Speculative trade
Shipping (from the carrier's POV)

Everything in Bk1 to Bk4 is procedural. Bk5 and Sup4 get out of procedural mode a bit; Bks 5-6-7-8 have very clear chunks of setting fluff.

Sups 1, 2, 9 & 13 are procedural output -
Sup 3 & 10 are massaged heavily from the procedural system;
Sups 5, 8, 11, and 12: pure fluff.
Sup 6 is procedural - "here's a process to generate short adventures on the fly via this procedure"
Sup 7 is maps for use with the combat procedural stuff.
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Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
Marquis of the Solomani Rim (SOLO 0606)
Marquis of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2410)
Baron of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2231)
Knight of the Iridium Throne (CORE 1434)
Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
Knight of Deneb (REFT 2239)
SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
MCG - Battle of Boughene
TAS: William Hostman (CORR 2506)
TAS: Bearer (DAIB 1326)
IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu± dt± f+ fs++ ge± ih- inf± j± jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
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