Traveller Store CotI Features New Posts Mark Forums Read Register


Go Back TravellerRPG.com > Citizens of the Imperium > Cepheus Engine > Cepheus General

Cepheus General General discussion of Cepheus Engine products.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old June 9th, 2017, 06:28 PM
aramis's Avatar
aramis aramis is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Anchorage, AK, USofA
Posts: 27,432
Gallery : 52
Visit aramis's Blog
aramis has disabled reputation
Send a message via ICQ to aramis Send a message via AIM to aramis Send a message via Yahoo to aramis
Default

The problem with the whole retroclone approach is that, thanks to the lack of precision, no two retrocloners are likely to see the same system from the same text.

See, I don't see those tasks as "avoid problems" as much as "enable solutions"...

In many of those rolls in CT, it's "If you Do X, either you solve problem Y or you make problem Z."

Gambling: X is cheat. Y is lack of cash, Z is another set of issues, either bouncers or cops or angry mob...

Putting on a vacc suit in a hurry solces the decompression issue; it doesn't make anything worse if you fail.

Dogfighting in small craft isn't avoiding problems, it's enabling a solution... literally a firing solution.

A success enables some condition change. A failure adds a different condition change.

Gambling: It's not "save vs detection" it's a measure of how well you hide your cheating.
__________________
~ Aramis
aramis.hostman.us /trav
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
Marquis of the Solomani Rim (SOLO 0606)
Marquis of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2410)
Baron of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2231)
Knight of the Iridium Throne (CORE 1434)
Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
Knight of Deneb (REFT 2239)
SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
MCG - Battle of Boughene
TAS: William Hostman (CORR 2506)
TAS: Bearer (DAIB 1326)
IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu± dt± f+ fs++ ge± ih- inf± j± jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
Unless there is bold red text, presume my posts to be my personal material only.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old June 9th, 2017, 08:28 PM
creativehum's Avatar
creativehum creativehum is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,114
Gallery : 2
creativehum Citizen+creativehum Citizen+creativehum Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
...no two retrocloners are likely to see the same system from the same text.
I don't see this as a problem. It is why D&D has many retro-clones. Each is built to answer different tastes and different needs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
I don't see those tasks as "avoid problems" as much as "enable solutions"...
Sure. I'm not speaking for anyone else, but obviously most Throws will be enabling solutions. You see it as one over the other. I'll see it as both.

But you and I simply go down different roads. Not an issue at all. We play at different tables.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
Gambling: X is cheat. Y is lack of cash, Z is another set of issues, either bouncers or cops or angry mob...
If there is no risk for the gambler I won't make him roll if I'm the Referee. If he teaches poker to a grope of aborigines who have never played poker, and he's teaching them the game, and he can make it seem like it's a good idea for them to keep losing stuff to him he'll clean them out without a die roll.

If, however, there is a chance for failure with consequence, then he'll roll. I understand you would play differently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
Putting on a vacc suit in a hurry solves the decompression issue; it doesn't make anything worse if you fail.
I must be misunderstanding you here. Because I would assume suffocating is worse than not being safe in a vaccine suit. And I'd rule it that way if I were the Referee. But, again, I suspect I am not understanding you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
Dogfighting in small craft isn't avoiding problems, it's enabling a solution... literally a firing solution.
The roll is made in a critical situation. You might die if you don't do well fast enough. Hence rolls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
Gambling: It's not "save vs detection" it's a measure of how well you hide your cheating.
I see "save vs. detection" as being exactly the same thing as "hide your cheating" -- but with different words.

Mike reads the Book 1 rules with a focus on roleplaying till a role is required (a critical moment), with DMs based on the details of the situation at hand.

There's nothing in the Book 1 (1977) edition to contradict this. That it is open to other play styles does not contradict this either. But he's advocating for what he wants. People can either say "Yeah, I don't care. Not my thing." Or they can say, "Huh. Interesting." But they can't say, given the actual text of the book, that's its somehow a betrayal of what's in the game or some weird personal interpretation.
__________________
TRAVELLER: Out of the Box. Lots of blog posts about original Traveller and playing with Traveller Books 1-3.
"The beauty of Classic Traveller Book 1, 2, and 3 is that the ref is free to make such decisions for themselves." -- Mike Wightman
"The beauty of Classic Traveller Book 1, 2, and is that the ref must make most of the decisions himself." -- flykiller
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old June 9th, 2017, 08:33 PM
creativehum's Avatar
creativehum creativehum is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,114
Gallery : 2
creativehum Citizen+creativehum Citizen+creativehum Citizen+
Default

I want to add: Mike hasn't using the term "Saving Throw" or Save. (Neither have I, by the way.)

The was introduced by kilemall. Mike has said "Critical Situation." There may be a difference for folks on this thread, there may not be. But I think the distinction should be made because Mike might not be saying what some people are answering to him having said.
__________________
TRAVELLER: Out of the Box. Lots of blog posts about original Traveller and playing with Traveller Books 1-3.
"The beauty of Classic Traveller Book 1, 2, and 3 is that the ref is free to make such decisions for themselves." -- Mike Wightman
"The beauty of Classic Traveller Book 1, 2, and is that the ref must make most of the decisions himself." -- flykiller

Last edited by creativehum; June 9th, 2017 at 10:16 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old June 10th, 2017, 03:11 AM
aramis's Avatar
aramis aramis is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Anchorage, AK, USofA
Posts: 27,432
Gallery : 52
Visit aramis's Blog
aramis has disabled reputation
Send a message via ICQ to aramis Send a message via AIM to aramis Send a message via Yahoo to aramis
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by creativehum View Post
I

I must be misunderstanding you here. Because I would assume suffocating is worse than not being safe in a vaccine suit. And I'd rule it that way if I were the Referee. But, again, I suspect I am not understanding you.
Failing the vacc suit roll is no worse than doing nothing at all.
__________________
~ Aramis
aramis.hostman.us /trav
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
Marquis of the Solomani Rim (SOLO 0606)
Marquis of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2410)
Baron of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2231)
Knight of the Iridium Throne (CORE 1434)
Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
Knight of Deneb (REFT 2239)
SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
MCG - Battle of Boughene
TAS: William Hostman (CORR 2506)
TAS: Bearer (DAIB 1326)
IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu± dt± f+ fs++ ge± ih- inf± j± jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
Unless there is bold red text, presume my posts to be my personal material only.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old June 10th, 2017, 05:11 AM
mike wightman's Avatar
mike wightman mike wightman is offline
Noble
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 14,570
Gallery : 0
mike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizen
Default

Do you mean you die either way?

If you fail the roll - that's the 10+, you are now at risk of being killed.

Quote:
the danger of minor mishaps becoming fatal remains great. A basic throw of 10+ to avoid a dangerous situation applies whenever any non-ordinary maneuver is attempted while wearing a vacc suit (including running, jumping, hiding, jumping untethered from one ship to another, or other such activity). Allow a DM of +4 per level of expertise.
You then get to roll vs 7+ to rectify the situation or die (or be critically injured/drifting off into the void etc.)

Quote:
When such an incident occurs, it may be remedied by any character with vac suit skill (including the character in danger) on a throw of 7+; DMs: per level of expertise, +2; if no expertise, -4.
Make the first roll and you don't have the risk of death or injury. Fail it and you do.
Make the second roll and you are fine, you have rectified the situation, fail it and you are at risk of 'minor mishaps becoming fatal'.
__________________
The beauty of CT LBB1-3 is that the ref is free to make such decisions for themselves.

Last edited by mike wightman; June 10th, 2017 at 09:16 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old June 10th, 2017, 05:23 AM
mike wightman's Avatar
mike wightman mike wightman is offline
Noble
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 14,570
Gallery : 0
mike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizen
Default

CT event resolution is hidden away in the skill descriptions in LBB:1, the guide to "DIE-ROLLING CONVENTIONS" in A:1 Kinunir page 2, and the extended "Use of dice rolls" section in The Traveller Adventure pages 28 and 29 which includes the use of situation throws...

my retclone version based on CE is a re-write of the CE task system to more closely resemble the free form approach of CT - that's what make it a retclone.

Note, it has to be different to CT or it is a straight copy, which I would assume is a no no. Which is also the reason for adjusting the skill list so as not to directly copy CT.

I am guided by the last words in LBB:3
Quote:
Above all, the players and the referees must work together. Care must be taken that the referee does not simply lay fortunes in the path of the players, but the situation is not primarily an adversary relationship. The referee simply administers the rules in situations where the players themselves have an incomplete understanding of the universe. The results should reflect a consistent reality.
__________________
The beauty of CT LBB1-3 is that the ref is free to make such decisions for themselves.

Last edited by mike wightman; June 10th, 2017 at 09:18 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old June 10th, 2017, 11:19 AM
creativehum's Avatar
creativehum creativehum is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,114
Gallery : 2
creativehum Citizen+creativehum Citizen+creativehum Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
...and the extended "Use of dice rolls" section in The Traveller Adventure pages 28 and 29 which includes the use of situation throws...
Mike, I haven't read The Traveller Adventure for years. (Too rail-roady for my taste... even back when I bought it.) But I just read the passage you referred to and lo' and behold, there it is... exactly the kind of stuff I talk to people about when I talk about Traveller all the time. It's a terrific example and reference. Thank you.
__________________
TRAVELLER: Out of the Box. Lots of blog posts about original Traveller and playing with Traveller Books 1-3.
"The beauty of Classic Traveller Book 1, 2, and 3 is that the ref is free to make such decisions for themselves." -- Mike Wightman
"The beauty of Classic Traveller Book 1, 2, and is that the ref must make most of the decisions himself." -- flykiller

Last edited by creativehum; June 10th, 2017 at 12:42 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old June 10th, 2017, 01:10 PM
aramis's Avatar
aramis aramis is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Anchorage, AK, USofA
Posts: 27,432
Gallery : 52
Visit aramis's Blog
aramis has disabled reputation
Send a message via ICQ to aramis Send a message via AIM to aramis Send a message via Yahoo to aramis
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
CT event resolution is hidden away in the skill descriptions in LBB:1, the guide to "DIE-ROLLING CONVENTIONS" in A:1 Kinunir page 2, and the extended "Use of dice rolls" section in The Traveller Adventure pages 28 and 29 which includes the use of situation throws...
Noting that KB comes away from the same text with different approaches.
Quote:
my retclone version based on CE is a re-write of the CE task system to more closely resemble the free form approach of CT - that's what make it a retclone.
No, pseudoclone. True Retroclones attempt to be the original, reworded to avoid copyright, so as to make new copies of the mechanics in print.

Only a few of the 'clones are truly retroclones - OSRIC being the best example. Bluehome being another (it's mechanically Blue D&D basic), but then it gets expanded to cover the same ground as Cook Expert, but pseudocloned to make it blue basic compatible, making it no longer truly a retroclone.

The real creativity is in the pseudoclone sphere. It's where the value add lies most of the time.

OSRIC and the other true retroclones are of value only in that the original is unavailable. Pseudoclones differences are their value-add.

Viva la difference!
__________________
~ Aramis
aramis.hostman.us /trav
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
Marquis of the Solomani Rim (SOLO 0606)
Marquis of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2410)
Baron of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2231)
Knight of the Iridium Throne (CORE 1434)
Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
Knight of Deneb (REFT 2239)
SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
MCG - Battle of Boughene
TAS: William Hostman (CORR 2506)
TAS: Bearer (DAIB 1326)
IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu± dt± f+ fs++ ge± ih- inf± j± jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
Unless there is bold red text, presume my posts to be my personal material only.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old June 10th, 2017, 02:27 PM
BytePro BytePro is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,711
Gallery : 0
BytePro Citizen
Default

Yeah, pseudoclone fits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
... To that end there is no task system, rather there should be a referee's guide to resolving a critical situation involving a throw of the dice...
Sounds like a simple enough hack.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old June 10th, 2017, 03:26 PM
mike wightman's Avatar
mike wightman mike wightman is offline
Noble
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 14,570
Gallery : 0
mike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizen
Default

It is...

the trick is to give the referee all the tools in CT reskinned via CE.

For example a skill level in CT can be worth anything from +1 to +4 per skill level - the referee and player should be able to decide how important the skill level is to the throw.

Similarly a low or high characteristic may be worth anything from -1 to +2 but the actual value of a low or high characteristic is again up to the referee and player to decide on rather than having fixed characteristic ratings granting +/- DMs.

Tools may be -1 to +1 depending on if they are improvised or specialist.

It all sounds much more complicated than it actually is.
__________________
The beauty of CT LBB1-3 is that the ref is free to make such decisions for themselves.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Retclone skill list mike wightman Cepheus General 14 June 4th, 2017 05:37 AM
[Funny Traveller Throw-Out] THe Magicians Kilgs Random Static 0 April 26th, 2017 12:56 PM
Fun Settings to throw your players into... Spinward Scout The Lone Star 2 December 18th, 2009 03:32 PM

This website and its contents are copyright ©2010-2013 Far Future Enterprises. All rights reserved. Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises .
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright (c) 2010-2013, Far Future Enterprises. All Rights Reserved.