Traveller Store CotI Features New Posts Mark Forums Read Register


Go Back TravellerRPG.com > Citizens of the Imperium > Cepheus Engine > Cepheus General

Cepheus General General discussion of Cepheus Engine products.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old June 4th, 2017, 03:23 PM
mike wightman's Avatar
mike wightman mike wightman is offline
Noble
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 14,566
Gallery : 0
mike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizen
Default Retclone critical situation throw

As I posted in the skills thread, my thinking is that skills are more than just 'skills' - they are a measure of training, experience, and yes, skill. They should be broad and applicable in many situations, not just the situation the skill name suggests.

Nor do I think you should be using skills as 'tasks' - players should role play and the referee and players only turn to the dice to resolve a critical situation.
In a critical situation the player or referee could find an unexpected reason why a particular skill could affect the outcome.

To that end there is no task system, rather there should be a referee's guide to resolving a critical situation involving a throw of the dice.

The referee should decide on the target number - but should be armed with the % chance of success table, i.e. the referee should be aware of the odds.

The DMs should be a result of negotiation and the player's roleplaying.
__________________
The beauty of CT LBB1-3 is that the ref is free to make such decisions for themselves.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old June 4th, 2017, 07:52 PM
Clone95 Clone95 is offline
Citizen: SOC-5
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 12
Gallery : 0
Clone95 Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
To that end there is no task system, rather there should be a referee's guide to resolving a critical situation involving a throw of the dice.

The referee should decide on the target number - but should be armed with the % chance of success table, i.e. the referee should be aware of the odds.

The DMs should be a result of negotiation and the player's roleplaying.
Is this not what a task system is, or literally what any roleplaying game is?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old June 5th, 2017, 12:11 AM
kilemall kilemall is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,339
Gallery : 0
kilemall Citizen++kilemall Citizen++kilemall Citizen++kilemall Citizen++kilemall Citizen++kilemall Citizen++
Default

Ok, that's your view.

The original CT had all sorts of odd resolution rolls built in.

So if you go critical/roleplay and forego the odd rolls, that's fine, but IMO it shouldn't be labelled retclone, it would be it's own thing.
__________________
YUMV- Your Universe May Vary.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old June 5th, 2017, 03:37 AM
aramis's Avatar
aramis aramis is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Anchorage, AK, USofA
Posts: 27,418
Gallery : 52
Visit aramis's Blog
aramis has disabled reputation
Send a message via ICQ to aramis Send a message via AIM to aramis Send a message via Yahoo to aramis
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kilemall View Post
Ok, that's your view.

The original CT had all sorts of odd resolution rolls built in.

So if you go critical/roleplay and forego the odd rolls, that's fine, but IMO it shouldn't be labelled retclone, it would be it's own thing.
There's actually a better term for such things - Pseudoclone. Retroclone mindset, but making some significant changes.
__________________
~ Aramis
aramis.hostman.us /trav
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
Marquis of the Solomani Rim (SOLO 0606)
Marquis of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2410)
Baron of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2231)
Knight of the Iridium Throne (CORE 1434)
Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
Knight of Deneb (REFT 2239)
SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
MCG - Battle of Boughene
TAS: William Hostman (CORR 2506)
TAS: Bearer (DAIB 1326)
IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu± dt± f+ fs++ ge± ih- inf± j± jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
Unless there is bold red text, presume my posts to be my personal material only.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old June 5th, 2017, 03:59 AM
kilemall kilemall is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,339
Gallery : 0
kilemall Citizen++kilemall Citizen++kilemall Citizen++kilemall Citizen++kilemall Citizen++kilemall Citizen++
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
There's actually a better term for such things - Pseudoclone. Retroclone mindset, but making some significant changes.
Sounds fine to me, just not appropriate to make interpreted changes and then claim authenticity.
__________________
YUMV- Your Universe May Vary.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old June 5th, 2017, 04:40 AM
aramis's Avatar
aramis aramis is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Anchorage, AK, USofA
Posts: 27,418
Gallery : 52
Visit aramis's Blog
aramis has disabled reputation
Send a message via ICQ to aramis Send a message via AIM to aramis Send a message via Yahoo to aramis
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kilemall View Post
Sounds fine to me, just not appropriate to make interpreted changes and then claim authenticity.
I Fully agree. Tho judging from some of his posts, he's essentially attempting recreate what may have been his misinterpretations from his youth...

My read of it is "Trim the number of skills to the point where they function more like classes than skills"...
__________________
~ Aramis
aramis.hostman.us /trav
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
Marquis of the Solomani Rim (SOLO 0606)
Marquis of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2410)
Baron of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2231)
Knight of the Iridium Throne (CORE 1434)
Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
Knight of Deneb (REFT 2239)
SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
MCG - Battle of Boughene
TAS: William Hostman (CORR 2506)
TAS: Bearer (DAIB 1326)
IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu± dt± f+ fs++ ge± ih- inf± j± jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
Unless there is bold red text, presume my posts to be my personal material only.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old June 6th, 2017, 12:05 AM
ShawnDriscoll's Avatar
ShawnDriscoll ShawnDriscoll is offline
Citizen: SOC-12
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 399
Gallery : 0
ShawnDriscoll Citizen
Default

It's the old game system topic of skill rolls vs save rolls for tabletop adventure games.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old June 9th, 2017, 03:34 PM
creativehum's Avatar
creativehum creativehum is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,114
Gallery : 2
creativehum Citizen+creativehum Citizen+creativehum Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kilemall View Post
Ok, that's your view.

The original CT had all sorts of odd resolution rolls built in.

So if you go critical/roleplay and forego the odd rolls, that's fine, but IMO it shouldn't be labelled retclone, it would be it's own thing.
I'm confused. Are you saying the original rules weren't about using Throws for critical situations, with skills applied to Throws on a situational basis based off roleplayd detailed, using the Throws listed in the skill descriptions as examples?
__________________
TRAVELLER: Out of the Box. Lots of blog posts about original Traveller and playing with Traveller Books 1-3.
"The beauty of Classic Traveller Book 1, 2, and 3 is that the ref is free to make such decisions for themselves." -- Mike Wightman
"The beauty of Classic Traveller Book 1, 2, and is that the ref must make most of the decisions himself." -- flykiller
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old June 9th, 2017, 04:06 PM
kilemall kilemall is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,339
Gallery : 0
kilemall Citizen++kilemall Citizen++kilemall Citizen++kilemall Citizen++kilemall Citizen++kilemall Citizen++
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by creativehum View Post
I'm confused. Are you saying the original rules weren't about using Throws for critical situations, with skills applied to Throws on a situational basis based off roleplayd detailed, using the Throws listed in the skill descriptions as examples?
I am not gainsaying the process of 'negotiated DMs' or the expressed avoidance of a task system such as what later versions or homebrews bolted on, especially later versions that tend to force Roll Playing. Both are opinions and perfectly valid approaches to reffing.

What I am saying is that if one is to qualify a version as truly retclone, then it should have all those quirky rolls, some of which certainly are skill/task sort of rolls and NOT just saving throws.

Else one is doing a CE version of a personal vision of what CT was/is- which is fine, I just don't think it deserves the title retclone.
__________________
YUMV- Your Universe May Vary.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old June 9th, 2017, 05:02 PM
creativehum's Avatar
creativehum creativehum is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,114
Gallery : 2
creativehum Citizen+creativehum Citizen+creativehum Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kilemall View Post
I am not gainsaying the process of 'negotiated DMs' or the expressed avoidance of a task system such as what later versions or homebrews bolted on, especially later versions that tend to force Roll Playing. Both are opinions and perfectly valid approaches to reffing.

What I am saying is that if one is to qualify a version as truly retclone, then it should have all those quirky rolls, some of which certainly are skill/task sort of rolls and NOT just saving throws.

Else one is doing a CE version of a personal vision of what CT was/is- which is fine, I just don't think it deserves the title retclone.
Cool.

I was asking because when I read the skill list in the 1977* edition of Book 1 I see that 13 of the 22 Throws** listed are defined by avoiding-things-going-wrong in one way or another. (I'm including things like Forgery and Gambling here, where failure to avoid detection by definition means something will go wrong, as well skills like Leadership in which failure can lead to things going wrong.) As for the other 9 without doubt the examples fall outside the need of crisis... but as a Referee I'm not sure why I would introduce rolls outside of a crisis.

I say this because as Book 1 states: "A newly generated character is singularly unequipped to deal with the adventuring world, having neither the expertise nor the experience necessary for the active life."

So I assume PCs are relatively accomplished and competent at one they do. If a PC has Admin-1 I'm probably not going to make the Player make a Throw simply because he's doing something that can tap Admin. Admin-1 means, in my view, he can handle most Admin situations that don't involve special circumstances. And generally, in my games at least, special circumstances involve some sort of crisis. (He is being observed; failure will lead to heavy-duty trouble from the authorities; and so on.) In other words, I am applying the logic of the 13 skill descriptions I mentioned above to most situations. Because for the most part I assume that if there is no pressure, given enough time and no stress, a PC can pretty much do what he was trained to do.

Finally, on p. 20 of Book 1 (1977) there is this passage:

Quote:
Skills and the Referee: It is impossible for any table of information to cover all aspects of every potential situation, and the above listing is by no means complete in its coverage of the effects of skills. This is where the referee becomes an important part of the game process. The above listing of skills and game effects must necessarily be taken as a guide, and followed, altered, or ignored as the actual situation dictates.
[ -- emphasis added]

The passage above was cut from every other edition from Basic Traveller. Which I think is a shame since it nails down (in my view at least) the philosophy and practice of play the original Classic Traveller rules depend on. With th text above one isn't looking for a unified task system because the game isn't lacking one. It's a loosey-goosey system for the Referee to make up significant rolls as reacquired. And, specifically, it says the skill descriptions are guides to be "followed, altered or ignored" per actual situations at the table -- not set in stone applications of the rules.

All of this is to say: None of this concretely supports or refutes how either you are I approach the text. But I think a good faith argument can be made, given the text above, that Mike is precisely approaching the game in its original intent and not at all redefining everything to some personal vision.

________
* I'm using the 1977 rules because we're tossing around the term "retro-clone" -- and as far as I'm concerned this is the edition one would want to clone if one is going retro.

** I am using the term Throw, which is the term used from Book 1.
__________________
TRAVELLER: Out of the Box. Lots of blog posts about original Traveller and playing with Traveller Books 1-3.
"The beauty of Classic Traveller Book 1, 2, and 3 is that the ref is free to make such decisions for themselves." -- Mike Wightman
"The beauty of Classic Traveller Book 1, 2, and is that the ref must make most of the decisions himself." -- flykiller

Last edited by creativehum; June 9th, 2017 at 06:23 PM..
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Retclone skill list mike wightman Cepheus General 14 June 4th, 2017 05:37 AM
[Funny Traveller Throw-Out] THe Magicians Kilgs Random Static 0 April 26th, 2017 12:56 PM
Fun Settings to throw your players into... Spinward Scout The Lone Star 2 December 18th, 2009 03:32 PM

This website and its contents are copyright ©2010-2013 Far Future Enterprises. All rights reserved. Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises .
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright (c) 2010-2013, Far Future Enterprises. All Rights Reserved.