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  #11  
Old June 14th, 2016, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whartung View Post
I would ask though that articles that have a long life, and that have been "recanonized", i.e. changed over time from edition to edition, have notes as to what's canon in the version when they were introduced and what's canon currently.
For example, the nobility structure of the Imperium. T5 has definitely made changes to what was perceived to be the noble-structure in earlier rulesets.
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  #12  
Old June 14th, 2016, 02:39 PM
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... and what's canon currently.
(laugh)
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  #13  
Old June 14th, 2016, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whartung View Post
I would ask though that articles that have a long life, and that have been "recanonized", i.e. changed over time from edition to edition, have notes as to what's canon in the version when they were introduced and what's canon currently.

What about having something similar to a "metadata" page (call it a "prior canon" page) associated with articles that have had "canon-change" over the rulesets? Current canon (and canon from earlier rulesets that is harmonizable with it) goes on the main page, while earlier (and contradictory) "canon" from earlier rulesets goes on the associated "prior canon" page.

EDIT: Note that the above would also make a place to put "Proto-Traveller" material.
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Lord Richard Elruinn Ilendrick Rhovanion of Rhylanor
Count RhovanionSPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-FSir Richard, Knight (Kt)SPIN 2716 Rhylanor A434934-F
MarquisSPIN 0433 Jone B792785-9Sir Richard Elruinn, Knight (Kt)FORN 0727 Dirli C994422-8
Baronet of Jae TellonaSPIN 2814 Jae Tellona A560565-8Knight of Deneb (KD)SPIN 2814 Jae Tellona A560565-8
Baron of the Third ImperiumSPIN 3220 Powaza C787566-5Knight of the Third Imperium (KTI)SPIN 3235 Trin A894A96-F
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Baron of ImlaarDENE 2212 Imlaar D677551-6SEH - For Extreme Heroism @ The Battle of Ruby
Baroness of NorthammonDENE 0921 Northammon B764667-AMCGx2 - For Conspicuous Gallantry @ The Assaults on Dinomn & Denotam

Last edited by whulorigan; June 14th, 2016 at 04:28 PM.. Reason: Note about Proto-Traveller
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  #14  
Old June 14th, 2016, 02:59 PM
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Hi Whartung,

Quote:
Originally Posted by whartung View Post
Not really my bailiwick, but seems to be segregation shouldn't be too difficult.
Actually, it's tremendously difficult largely for many of the reasons you've specified and a few you have not.

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Originally Posted by whartung View Post
First, a list of canonical sources needs to be created (this is likely already done by someone, somewhere, dunno if it's posted).
Well, there is a list of published sources... But, to my knowledge, Don was the only one who worked with Marc directly regarding canon... And no particular system other than the hermeneutic was ever established for it.

In other words, there really is not some kind of established list of canon. List of published products, sure. Canon, not so much. It's pretty piecemeal and it's not even constant within its piecemeal nature. Some products for instance from the GURPS line have been de-canonized. While others are. And many of the Mongoose products are considered "canon" by many, but have diverged from the T5 "canon" OTU setting... Same with the "Loren-verse"...

And much of "canon", or at least "published", is contra-indicating other sources... Like the Star Wars Expanded Universe with drunk lemmings...

I might also point out that there are not "committees" for much of Traveller like there are for the Star Trek or Star Wars wikis... That's probably a blessing... There is one person in charge and that person makes decisions... And I have sympathy for that guy, because I get the impression he doesn't always get clear direction. It's not a big operation with a paid staff.

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Originally Posted by whartung View Post
Then entries in the wiki MUST have references to said list.
It's nice to write new entries with references, but there are many old ones that need references inserted. For instance, when I do not know a reference, I ask around and try to get answers. I look through my stack of books, but I do not have them all, yet alone know the piecemeal status of canonicity for every product, which is near-random in nature.

And this is a hobby I do for fun.

More people complain about it than help fix it and make it viable.

As one of the better known wiki volunteers, I am aware of the reference problem and can tell you that it is being worked one one article at a time, out of thousands...

Quote:
Originally Posted by whartung View Post
I would ask though that articles that have a long life, and that have been "recanonized", i.e. changed over time from edition to edition, have notes as to what's canon in the version when they were introduced and what's canon currently.
And that's an additional complication, canon evolves over time...

The Star Wars wiki, for instance, has several levels of canonicity...

If I were Marc Miller, I'd prefer to write new novels and enjoy the setting rather than try to make peace amongst the fan schisms...

=====
Those are my few cents, on a very complicated subject.

Thanks for sharing your ideas. They are appreciated.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

Last edited by maksimsmelchak; June 15th, 2016 at 10:00 AM..
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  #15  
Old June 14th, 2016, 03:13 PM
maksimsmelchak maksimsmelchak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whulorigan View Post
What about having something similar to a "metadata" page (call it a "prior canon" page) associated with articles that have had "canon-change" over the rulesets? Current canon (and canon from earlier rulesets that is harmonizable with it) goes on the main page, while earlier (and contradictory) "canon" from earlier rulesets goes on the associated "prior canon" page.
Cool idea. I'll help you make it happen.

I love what you are doing with the stellar data. It really builds in a cool way on what Thomas and I created to categorize binaries, trinaries, etc.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

Last edited by maksimsmelchak; June 14th, 2016 at 04:27 PM..
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  #16  
Old June 14th, 2016, 03:15 PM
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More people complain about it than help fix it and make it viable.
there's a reason for that.

star trek, star wars, d&d et al had huge bodies of core visualization behind them, upon which "canon" could be established and upon which could be hung any amount of fan work, and both coherently. traveller has no such core visualization, in fact it seems to consist mostly of "imtu" - further, note closely, of "otu" a la carted to the point of "imtu".

at this point coherence in traveller is impossible. it's more productive to argue about it, so people argue.
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Old June 14th, 2016, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flykiller View Post
there's a reason for that.

star trek, star wars, d&d et al had huge bodies of core visualization behind them, upon which "canon" could be established and upon which could be hung any amount of fan work, and both coherently. traveller has no such core visualization, in fact it seems to consist mostly of "imtu" - further, note closely, of "otu" a la carted to the point of "imtu".

at this point coherence in traveller is impossible. it's more productive to argue about it, so people argue.
Good point.

Can I explain myself by saying I am a benevolent optimist... LOL

Always hopeful... And willing to do more than talk about it....

Thanks for your good points.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
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Old June 14th, 2016, 03:24 PM
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It does seem that the Wiki's purpose "these days" is more as a canonical resource, and less as a forum for fan material.

I suppose that, therefore, it could be something like an index into canon.
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Old June 14th, 2016, 06:22 PM
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It does seem that the Wiki's purpose "these days" is more as a canonical resource, and less as a forum for fan material.
Robject and gang,

*** What could be done to make the reference section better? Love the ideas on canon... How about ideas about making references and citations better? ***

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
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  #20  
Old June 14th, 2016, 06:37 PM
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perhaps leave canon to what is marketed and purchased, and leave wiki to fan entries of any nature.
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