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  #11  
Old May 11th, 2016, 10:31 PM
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I'd say we have a blank slate, but I could be wrong.

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  #12  
Old May 11th, 2016, 11:14 PM
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What about Striker? On one hand it lets you design all sorts of vehicles. On the other hand, it is the basis for MT's entire design system. On the gripping hand, it presents an entirely different combat system than LBB:1, something Wil can explain better than I.

While I'd like to include Striker, I also think it's too detailed for Proto-Traveller.

In the same vein, what about LBB:8 Robots? While the construction system would be nice to include, the fluff that system brings with it is definitely not Proto-Traveller.

I guess what I'm wondering about is where to draw lines. We all agree that nothing after a certain publication date is Proto-Traveller, but is it possible to draw lines within products? For example, keep the robot design system and discard the setting fluff/chrome?
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Old May 12th, 2016, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Whipsnade View Post
In the same vein, what about LBB:8 Robots? While the construction system would be nice to include, the fluff that system brings with it is definitely not Proto-Traveller.

I guess what I'm wondering about is where to draw lines. We all agree that nothing after a certain publication date is Proto-Traveller, but is it possible to draw lines within products? For example, keep the robot design system and discard the setting fluff/chrome?
Actually, in the first 3 or 4 issues of JTAS, there was a 3-part design system for robots that was the very early predecessor to Book 8. That could probably be used as a substitute.
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  #14  
Old May 12th, 2016, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by robject View Post
This discussion is to clearly spell out the rule/setting combination known as Proto-Traveller. I'll keep this OP updated as the model gets refined.

Proto-Traveller is a small ship, low traffic Traveller Universe which uses only the booklets produced before 1980.

Its default ruleset is Classic Traveller -- in particular, Starter Traveller is considered the best representation of the Classic Traveller rules. However, since it is past the 1980 cutpoint, some might revert to older editions. LBB4 (Mercenary) and Supplements 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 are typically accepted, as are Adventures 1-3 and all of the Double Adventures.

The Third Imperium is significantly darker than what is later portrayed, and is specifically labelled as declining. This quote is from Supplement 3:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supplement 3
The lmperium is a strong interstellar government encompassing 281 subsectors and approximately 11,000 worlds. Approximately 1100 years old, it is the third human empire to control this area, the oldest, and the strongest. Nevertheless, it is under strong pressure from its neighbouring interstellar governments, and does not have the strength nor the power which it once had.
Capital physically controls a narrow crossing of a Rift whose span is wider than Charted Space. The Spinward Marches is still far from Capital, and may be an actual frontier (although Library Data may still cast doubt on that point). The Kinunir is considered a true battle cruiser. Book 2 starship design and combat tends to be preferred.
I still prefer the Classic Little Black Books/Starter Traveller/The Traveller Book over all of the other editions, and it is what I am working on for my own sector.

However, I still argue that it is not a small-ship universe, as a 5,000 Traveller Displacement Ton ship still equates to a Real World nautical ship of circe 25,000 Gross Register Tons, or 60,000 measurement tons, or circa 67,500 displacement tons. A World War 2 Liberty ship of 7100 Gross Register Tons is a mere 1420 Traveller Displacement Tons. A T2SE tanker is rated at 10,200 Gross Register Tons, or a mere 2100 Traveller Displacement tons, and could transport, in addition to its own fuel, 141,000 barrels of petroleum. A C3 Bayfield-class transport was 7,900 Gross Register Tons, or 1.580 Traveller Displacement Tons, and when used as a transport could carry a reinforced infantry battalion of 1.650 men plus its own crew, along with 600-800 tons of combat cargo. If you use water displacement tons, that 67,500 tons buys you an Iowa-class battleship or a Midway-class aircraft carrier. None of them are what would be called small ships.

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I'd say we have a blank slate, but I could be wrong.
I would not say that you have a blank slate, but you do have a lot more freedom to customize the setting to your own purposes.
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  #15  
Old May 12th, 2016, 01:48 AM
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This is another way of saying, "They do not reflect GDW, but do reflect GW's interpretation of the OTU based upon drafts of Bk 5"... a small ship book 5-79 universe.
The fact that Book 5 allowed for gargantuan ships didn't mean one had to have gargantuan ships in one's universe. It was, like the rest of the early line, a toolkit. One could keep the weapons and still keep it small.

And as far as this goes...

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Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
However, I still argue that it is not a small-ship universe...
I know I agree with you. But I do think most people mean "small-ship" in contrast to the "preposterously gargantuan ships" that would become the staple of the OTU.
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  #16  
Old May 12th, 2016, 02:21 AM
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The fact that Book 5 allowed for gargantuan ships didn't mean one had to have gargantuan ships in one's universe. It was, like the rest of the early line, a toolkit. One could keep the weapons and still keep it small.

And as far as this goes...



I know I agree with you. But I do think most people mean "small-ship" in contrast to the "preposterously gargantuan ships" that would become the staple of the OTU.
Almost instantly became the default for GDW publications.

I much prefer a 10,000Td cap for MTU, but much prefer a HG-style design system to use them in.

Looking at current wet tonnages...

The MSC's Daewoo-built 192237 GT, 19224 TEU, MSC Oscar exceeds even the 10K Td point.
The Allseas crane-ship Pioneering Spirit as 403,342 GT dwarfs it.

Likewise, the USS Abraham Lincoln is 104,000 wet-displacement tons.

I don't see the need to have ships that big IMTU.
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Old May 12th, 2016, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by whulorigan View Post
Actually, in the first 3 or 4 issues of JTAS, there was a 3-part design system for robots that was the very early predecessor to Book 8. That could probably be used as a substitute.

Thanks, I'd forgotten about those articles!

Of course, that raises the question of where we draw the Proto-Traveller line with regards to JTAS issues? Issue #25, IIRC, was when it was folded into Challenge, but the line must surely be well before that?

Could it be the first time a HG2 article appears? Or will we be able to draw lines within JTAS issues as I suggested with LBB:8?

Also, concerning the Small Ship Universe and Big Ship Universe labels? It's been pretty clear from the start that "small" is being used a relative term; that is LBB:2's ships are considered "small" only when compared to HG2's behemoths.

Sadly, people too often confuse words with the actual thing in question.
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Old May 12th, 2016, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Whipsnade View Post
What about Striker? On one hand it lets you design all sorts of vehicles. On the other hand, it is the basis for MT's entire design system. On the gripping hand, it presents an entirely different combat system than LBB:1, something Wil can explain better than I.

While I'd like to include Striker, I also think it's too detailed for Proto-Traveller.

In the same vein, what about LBB:8 Robots? While the construction system would be nice to include, the fluff that system brings with it is definitely not Proto-Traveller.

I guess what I'm wondering about is where to draw lines. We all agree that nothing after a certain publication date is Proto-Traveller, but is it possible to draw lines within products? For example, keep the robot design system and discard the setting fluff/chrome?
Striker is a 1981 ruleset and so by the OP is not eligible.

I would think Robots and Striker fit firmly into an MT category.
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Old May 12th, 2016, 01:24 PM
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It turns out that Proto-Traveller is easier to define than I expected.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Whipsnade View Post
Of course, that raises the question of where we draw the Proto-Traveller line with regards to JTAS issues? Issue #25, IIRC, was when it was folded into Challenge, but the line must surely be well before that?

Could it be the first time a HG2 article appears? Or will we be able to draw lines within JTAS issues as I suggested with LBB:8?
Here's the list: http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Journal...#Issue_Listing

Assuming Striker and Merchant Prince are "too late", we're looking at No. 10 at the latest. Assuming the Fifth Frontier War is too late, we're looking at No. 8 (a 1981 issue), with Broadsword Merc Cruisers.

But issues 6 and 7 have the High Guard revisions, which may (or may not be) "suspect".

In other words, there can be lines drawn from within JTAS issues for some time after JTAS 6.

In that vein, I've started an Exclusion List to sift out material not to be considered for Proto-Traveller except by referee decision.
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Old May 12th, 2016, 01:59 PM
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It turns out that Proto-Traveller is easier to define than I expected.




Here's the list: http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Journal...#Issue_Listing

Assuming Striker and Merchant Prince are "too late", we're looking at No. 10 at the latest. Assuming the Fifth Frontier War is too late, we're looking at No. 8 (a 1981 issue), with Broadsword Merc Cruisers.

But issues 6 and 7 have the High Guard revisions, which may (or may not be) "suspect".

In other words, there can be lines drawn from within JTAS issues for some time after JTAS 6.

In that vein, I've started an Exclusion List to sift out material not to be considered for Proto-Traveller except by referee decision.
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