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Liftoff Unofficial discussion related to 13Mann's Traveller: Liftoff set. For official discussion, go to http://forum.13mann.de/wbb/index.php?page=Board&boardID=67.

Note: The project has been cancelled, but the Beta-1.3 files are still available from 13 Mann.


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  #41  
Old August 31st, 2016, 05:49 PM
RandyB RandyB is offline
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Originally Posted by robject View Post
I'm with Creativehum on this. I am a relatively insular curmudgeon here, but even I understand that young people are as highly creative as they ever were, and certainly more imaginative than I am today.
Even so, "what is selling" is a proper marker to consider.
  #42  
Old August 31st, 2016, 06:12 PM
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Even so, "what is selling" is a proper marker to consider.
This is true. I can't imagine what it would be like growing up with such high quality game publications. It would probably be fantastic... compare Judges' Guild with TSR back in the 70s. For that matter, we had comic books back then too. We were no less imaginative for buying stuff that had more compelling art. Or were we?
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  #43  
Old August 31st, 2016, 06:56 PM
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Even so, "what is selling" is a proper marker to consider.
This is true. I can't imagine what it would be like growing up with such high quality game publications. It would probably be fantastic...
for you and I, yes. for them it is ordinary and expected. I very much doubt lbb1-3 would get very far today.

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Even so, "what is selling" is a proper marker to consider.
seeing that d&d5e and star wars "are doing quite well", one observes that both are heavily supported with highly-developed pre-provided media of various classes.
  #44  
Old August 31st, 2016, 08:18 PM
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Some people move the goal posts.

Some people, like flykiller, move the stadium.

We just went from insisting that "the kids" needed apps and all manner of worlds in all sorts of media pre-packaged for them... to saying the Little Black Books aren't fancy enough for the today's market.

Sweet Bejeezus, you've got some balls on you.

Anyway, back to reality:

Advanced Dungeons & Dragons second edition set a bar for artwork and presentation back on 1989. While that was 12 years after the first edition of the Traveller LBBs, it is 28 years ago. Nothing that is in the current D&D RPG products or the current Star Wars RPG products go beyond anything that could have been found a generation and a half ago.

I'm going to be running Classic Traveller this weekend at a convention. If previous experience holds for the games I've played in and run, the people sitting at the table will be, at the oldest, a decade young than me. Most will be about fifteen to twenty years younger than me. And some will twenty five to thirty years younger than me.

They're imaginative. They're fun. They know how to create. And -- for crying out loud -- apps? Apps to do what? You know what they know how to do? Sit down and make stuff up.
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Last edited by creativehum; August 31st, 2016 at 08:41 PM..
  #45  
Old August 31st, 2016, 08:32 PM
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I'm going to be running Classic Traveller this weekend at a convention.
good. I envy you, really do. go for it.
  #46  
Old September 1st, 2016, 06:31 AM
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for you and I, yes. for them it is ordinary and expected. I very much doubt lbb1-3 would get very far today.



seeing that d&d5e and star wars "are doing quite well", one observes that both are heavily supported with highly-developed pre-provided media of various classes.
5E is the least supported D&D edition.
Total official products to shelves, 2 years on:
  • PHB
  • DMG
  • MM
  • SCAG
  • 5 big hardcover adventures (12-16 levels worth of play each)
  • 1 boxed adventure (5 levels worth of play)
  • GM Screen
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  #47  
Old September 1st, 2016, 09:08 AM
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Maybe I wasn't clear. Maybe I should leave it be.

But I won't.

Kids don't -need- apps.

A modern game, one that needs broad appeal to be successful today in the long run, and has particularly crunchy bits, could certainly benefit from apps. Pick up money laying on the table, so to speak.

This requires no balls to say. I don't know how old you are CreativeHum, but the "younger" people signing up to play in your convention game... I wonder if they're already on board with buying Traveller stuff that comes out, fans of the game and "brand advocates," or they're new or undecided. Hard for me to even guess.

But one of these groups would be better to consider, for marketing purposes.

As for what the apps would be for... not everyone who might love Traveller, or who might buy the game, enjoys the prospect of spending the required time to find, absorb, and run through the tables for results and then work through, error check, and clean up this work to just make a character. You might. lotrs of people here might. But I'm pretty sure not everyone who loves RPGs or Traveller does.

Rinse and repeat for items you want. If you're running the game, rinse and repeat again for more items, a ship, a planet, for almost all the sophonts you need any level of detail on, and so on.

Doing all this by hand could very well be your cup of tea, but I'm open to the possibility that it's not everyone's brand of joy. Apps would help with all that, and increase appeal of the game as a whole. I don't think saying so is insulting anyone, or a sign of massive balls.

That's just my opinion, though. I do have less than 20 posts, here.
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  #48  
Old September 1st, 2016, 11:22 AM
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Hello Spencer,

My "balls" comment was directed directly to flykiller, who has a habit of making preposterous claims, and then when asked to explain them either walks away (typing "...shrug..." with not other comment, or changing the subject of the conversation, as he did in the situation above.)

You are taking the time to explain your points. That's called a conversation. And i think that's awesome.

Also, I don't think you made any claims the kids have no imagination.

Also, I don't care how many posts you have.

As for you points, they seem sound, but we have no data to back it up. There's always been this great white whale of "getting more people into the hobby." But the fact is, its a specula little hobby, and the number of people who might be into it is limited. That said, from all the accounts I'm hearing. D&D 5e is doing better than all the other editions put together. It has no more bells and whistles than previous editions. In fact (perhaps significantly) fewer.

As far as Traveller goes I'm not sure which edition of Traveller we're talking about. I use Classic Traveller -- and by Classic, I mean Basic Traveller -- the first three Little Black Books. And by that I mean, original Traveller, with no concerns for the OTU or getting it "right" but having my own material, full of improvisation and fun as my Players explore many worlds and make they fortune. Which is what Traveller was once.

Combat can be a bear, but I've made some tools to speed this up significantly. Other than that, alien races are just a string of numbers like any other PC. Depth of culture is as deep as I need it to be for sessions of adventure fiction in the far future.

Original Traveller is an amazing toolkit in the spirit of the earliest days of the RPG hobby: flexible, easy to adjudicate in the spirit of "Rulings, Not Rules," and a breeze to create content on the fly if needed. Your description of character creation, for example, doesn't match my experience with character creation in Classic Traveller.

Now, if a game system is so complicated that apps needed (or at least make the process bearable) than I suppose apps should be used. I can only ask at that point, "Why is the game so complicated? What is being gained from it?"

The fact is the people who like to sit around and puzzle solve problems with their friends in fictional environments might like things simple enough that they can handle the character creation and conflicts at the table using only paper, pencils, and dice. Once it gets more complicated than that it might be becoming something else.

I can't support this point except with an anecdote:

My friends at Harebrained Schemes made an awesome miniatures game called Golem Arcana. It's like Battletech, but with magical creatures. The miniatures are fun, the rules are fun. And there's an app you put on a tablet that lets the game handle all the calculations of firing, movement, and results. It saves a lot of time.

It didn't do very well.

Now, there are lots of reasons why it might not have done very well. But one of them might be that the people who like miniatures games don't want the game to do all that work. I honestly have no idea. But I think there's something to be said for digging into the fun people have and reasons why they are fun -- and that some things that seem like drudgery from the outside often are fun for the people in the middle of it.

I would argue that this whole issues has nothing to do with the age of the consumers. Again, 5e is doing gangbusters right now. And a lot of that will be the younger market. If an RPG is so complicated it needs an app, I don't care whether it came out in the '70s or today, it'll have a tough road. That's an issue for anyone of any age.

But the main point I wanted to make was that my post was specifically addressed to flykiller. Not you.
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  #49  
Old September 1st, 2016, 01:55 PM
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the "younger" people signing up to play in your convention game... I wonder if they're already on board with buying Traveller stuff that comes out, fans of the game and "brand advocates," or they're new or undecided.
they're at the convention to have a good time, and maybe ... maybe ... try something new. if you want to know what made an impression on them, look at what they buy as the convention winds down.

Quote:
5E is the least supported D&D edition.
there is more to support than specific products at specific times. a century of fantasy artwork (mostly of big muscular barbarians and chainmail-bikini-clad females) and quite a few movies (conan, world of warcraft) (not to mention the on-line game world) and quite a bit of literature delineates the genre generally and specifically.

"what's d&d?" "swords and monsters and magic and fantasy!" "oh, I know what that is!"

traveller has very little in comparison.

"what's traveller?" "science fiction in the far future." "what, star wars, with energy swords and mind powers and troubled heros struggling with morality and the fate of the universe in the balance and the heros striding like gods above the common folk? star trek, with exploding planets and 25 year old captains commanding starships and exploring strange new worlds themselves and saving the federation and the heros self-actualizing themselves?" "no, it's shotguns in space, older people living out their retirements while spending many weeks travelling between the stars." "oh."

reading through this, it occurs to me that most games involve people playing megacharacters. kirk is a megacharacter. luke is a megacharacter. conan is a megacharacter. game characters are megacharacters, or very rapidly grow to be such. they're not called that, they're not defined that way, but in effect they are. such games are attractive precisely because they are not realistic in any way - they allow the players to live a heroic and victorious fantasy.

traveller has very little room for megacharacters. it's just not heroic.

and that is why the other games have so much support - because they are extensions of that desire to live a heroic and victorious fantasy. and why traveller has relatively little - because it is not.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 03:02 PM
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Well, an "interactive" rule book may well be compelling.

A game that is distributed, as an "app" that is a combination of rules and any support applications that come along with it (simple example character generator, character sheet printer -- obviously if that's all that was offered it would be terrible).

But the problem is while I don't mind reading so much on a e-reader, I sure hate "browsing" on one. You just can't easily "rifle" through a PDF rule book, looking for a captivating graphic, or an interesting chapter heading.

As much as we hate junk mail at the house, I do like catalogs. They're far easier to browse than a web site. Just thumb through it, and you can see so much stuff, stuff I want, stuff I don't, stuff I didn't know I wanted. The electronic experience just isn't there yet, not easily, not conveniently.

But a DM app with rules and utilities, accompanied with a Player App that the DM can send characters and gear and little bits too -- that could be interesting if done right.
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