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  #21  
Old May 15th, 2013, 08:57 AM
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Well don't forget some language about their companion/navigator that works with them.

Since AI are consider sentient in your universe, this should be covered under the contract incase of dispute.

As for ship size, I was picturing nobles needing/wanting more than typical spacer room (volume).

Not talking 100's of tons per noble but was thinking of more like 2 or 3 times normal space.

Of course if this ship/trip is temporary, say like for a year or less, I am sure that nobles will be willing to tolerate being more confined and non luxurious conditions.

Again, just my view/opinion.

Dave
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Old May 15th, 2013, 10:33 AM
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Paragraph 5. If during the ship's service with DDB, it discovers a world with a compatible biosphere for the Ship ecology to colonize the world, the ship may call upon DDB or it's heirs and assigns for assistance in establishing a colony of Ships on this newly discovered world. The value of this assistance is not less than 5 RU as adjusted for changes in buying power, DDB may provide more than this ammount at it's discretion. This section may be invoked once for each such world discovered. (DDB wants to expand production of Ships and it's interest align's nicely with the Ship's desire to colonize other worlds.)
Here, I see a need for clarity. Exactly what are you proposing that involves RUs?

As to colonizing worlds, that is in the discretion of neither this firm or the party it represents. Only the Imperium can make such guaranteed offers to a Species or Individual, sir. It would be High Treason by Word and Deeds to make such a Claim and Grant to a Mainworld.

What DDB can guarantee is a fair share in the first naming rights, first landing rights, future resource rights, and/or discovery land grants. Again, I am pretty sure we can find some boilerplate to cover this too.

Not a Mainworld, but instead a discoverd world unclaimed by any intellegent species. Specifically with a silicone based biology that is biochemically compatible with Ship type ecosystem, and sufficient planetary hydrosphere and illumination from the primary such that the world has ice free oceans over at least 20% of the surface.
Assistance is in the form of:
Navagating the imperial bureaucracy, to obtain the permits and licenses, and title to said world.
Providing the services of such life sciences personnel as may be needed to assist with adaptation of the ship colonists to their new world.
Make available sufficient Ship employees with sufficient lift capacity to carry all the needed colonization materials and DDB personnel and ship colonists.
Providing such materials and personnel as are required for the colony.

The Ships envision the colonies thus produced to provide Ships for service as employees to DDB. The Imperium gains by increasing the supply of Ships in service.

The non-combatant rider... This ship was rather young and small, still with a mostly prey mindset when recruited to be a DDB employee and insisted upon this rider. Other ships that are much older and larger typically are agreeable for use as warships, espically ships that have BCS class hull sizes. (note the ships flight or fight response varies by individule and size of said person a 100 ton or smaller Ship is afraid of everything and a 10,000 ton ship is afraid of nothing, though there was one 14,000 ton class Ship that was released from service and returned to homeworld for cowardice in the face of the enemy.)
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*all non So humaniti are much closer related to Homo Nethanderalis than are So, and are immediately recognizable to So as "cavemen" complete with fur and the other morphological characteristics that were unimportant to Grandfather's need for a better servant
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Old May 15th, 2013, 10:57 AM
Sigmund Sigmund is offline
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So what we're proposing is both a sentient and free-willed ship, and a sentient and free-willed AI as part of the ship? I'm starting to wonder, honestly, why any sophont would willingly "buy" the ship, and try to use it. Despite appearances, the SHIP is not just another member of a crew. Every other sophont involved directly and immediately depends on the ship for every second of their existence while in space. They need a vessel that can be relied upon to perform and react exactly as the (hopefully) professional crew and their commander(s) need and expect it to, exactly and immediately when they need and expect it to. Forgive me, but this whole set-up is starting to sound needlessly complicated. What happens if the ship and the AI (whatever it's purpose is) happen to disagree about something? What happens if one or both of those entities disagrees with or doesn't like an order of the Captain? It's not like the ship can be relieved of duty and confined to quarters. I can honestly say that if it were me, and I had a choice between a "living" ship that could do whatever it wanted at any moment but happened to be able to repair itself for free, and a purely mechanical vessel that would require time and materials to repair, but would always do exactly as it was told to do, I would choose the latter every time. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of a biological ship, just not a sentient and free-willed biological ship, especially combined with a sentient and free-willed AI somehow attached to for an as of now completely unknown (by me) purpose. I apologize in advance if I have somehow missed the point or if I've offended anyone, just speaking plain here.
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  #24  
Old May 15th, 2013, 11:21 AM
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Sigmund, in my minds eye, that is what the AI if for to insure the mission and safety of the ship and passengers and the property of the company (though it is sentient).

Another factor to consider in a universe where these living ships have been for a long time (100's of years now it seems) the ships have learned that their reputation is important and just dumping/killing off passengers is not good for the race. Sure there probably have been a rogue ship or two but how is that different than 1,000's of Captains of nonliving ships over the same time period that have a more than a few rogues in their group.

I think as a race of living ships, that the race must have certain ingrain traits or instincts like honor (Keeping their word), loyalty (a since of having to protect those weaker species that can not Jump or fly in space, besides a sense of herding (ie they use to herd/flock/school in groups but now over the centuries they still have that need but have transferred it to 2 legged humanoids.)

Of course it just my opinion. the universe overlord, master of all, will tell us shortly (I hope. )

Dave Chase
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Old May 15th, 2013, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveChase View Post
Sigmund, in my minds eye, that is what the AI if for to insure the mission and safety of the ship and passengers and the property of the company (though it is sentient).

Another factor to consider in a universe where these living ships have been for a long time (100's of years now it seems) the ships have learned that their reputation is important and just dumping/killing off passengers is not good for the race. Sure there probably have been a rogue ship or two but how is that different than 1,000's of Captains of nonliving ships over the same time period that have a more than a few rogues in their group.

I think as a race of living ships, that the race must have certain ingrain traits or instincts like honor (Keeping their word), loyalty (a since of having to protect those weaker species that can not Jump or fly in space, besides a sense of herding (ie they use to herd/flock/school in groups but now over the centuries they still have that need but have transferred it to 2 legged humanoids.)

Of course it just my opinion. the universe overlord, master of all, will tell us shortly (I hope. )

Dave Chase
You make some fair points Dave I do appreciate that a sentient ship might be trained to react much more quickly and take initiative. What's giving me pause is posts like how it would dive into oceans all on it's own and stuff. That and memories of HAL and all the talk of the both the ship and AI being free-willed entities just concerns Capt. Jin... that and WW's anecdote about a cowardly capital ship... I mean that's serious stuff. If I were an Admiral, only one incident of that type would cause me to entirely lose confidence in the entire "race" of ships. A whole capital ship not following orders isn't just a cowardly crew-member. It would remove itself AND it's entire crew from the engagement and probably get a great many other sophonts killed in the process, possibly losing the engagement on top of it all. That's serious stuff, and if I were a military commander I'd immediately lobotomize the entire fleet (if I could get away with it) and install much more reliable non-sentient control systems. Otherwise, I'd certainly never rely on a ship of that type again. Given that my character is a "non-standard" sophont, it's not that I have anything particularly against the concept of "non-standard" sophonts, and on the contrary rather like the idea ( ). It's the idea of a possibly rebellious ship that would give Captain Jin, with his many years of experience in space, a great deal of pause before buying it.

Edit: Also, I'd say that a rogue crew member, or even rogue captain, does not necessarily put the entire crew and passenger compliment in immediate danger. It is much easier to contain a rogue crew member or members than the entire ship that holds the lives of every life on board in it's "hands" at every second. 2001 A Space Odyssey is a perfect example of what putting too much control in the "hands" of one entity can result in. IMO it would have only taken one example if this type to cause the Imperium, Companies, and/or individual crews to institute/install more than enough fail-safes and controls to prevent losing control of the ship and it's vital systems. A crew member, or even Captain, can be relieved of duty and replaced... the ship can not.
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  #26  
Old May 15th, 2013, 11:51 AM
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I'm sure we'll work it out, and the idea of a biological ship is both a cool idea, and right up Captain Jin's alley, so I as a player certainly support this idea at it's base. Just trying to promote verisimilitude.
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  #27  
Old May 15th, 2013, 02:24 PM
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Post [Referee] Before I pop off the bed to be proper creativity for the next round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by warwizard View Post
Paragraph 5. /snip/

Originally Posted by Advocate Daansan Thungirson, Esq.
"As to colonizing worlds, that is in the discretion of neither this firm or the party it represents. Only the Imperium can make such guaranteed offers to a Species or Individual, sir. It would be High Treason by Word and Deeds to make such a Claim and Grant to a Mainworld.

What DDB can guarantee is a fair share in the first naming rights, first landing rights, future resource rights, and/or discovery land grants. Again, I am pretty sure we can find some boilerplate to cover this too.
"

Not a Mainworld, but instead a discoverd world unclaimed by any intellegent species. Specifically with a silicone based biology that is biochemically compatible with Ship type ecosystem, and sufficient planetary hydrosphere and illumination from the primary such that the world has ice free oceans over at least 20% of the surface.

Assistance is in the form of:
  1. Navagating the imperial bureaucracy, to obtain the permits and licenses, and title to said world.
  2. Providing the services of such life sciences personnel as may be needed to assist with adaptation of the ship colonists to their new world.
  3. Make available sufficient Ship employees with sufficient lift capacity to carry all the needed colonization materials and DDB personnel and ship colonists.
  4. Providing such materials and personnel as are required for the colony.

The Ships envision the colonies thus produced to provide Ships for service as employees to DDB. The Imperium gains by increasing the supply of Ships in service.

The non-combatant rider... This ship was rather young and small, still with a mostly prey mindset when recruited to be a DDB employee and insisted upon this rider. Other ships that are much older and larger typically are agreeable for use as warships, espically ships that have BCS class hull sizes. (note the ships flight or fight response varies by individule and size of said person a 100 ton or smaller Ship is afraid of everything and a 10,000 ton ship is afraid of nothing, though there was one 14,000 ton class Ship that was released from service and returned to homeworld for cowardice in the face of the enemy.)
Dear Citizen warwizard,

See underlined text above regarding colonies.

Within the limits of their power DDB sees possible conditional on the understanding that the rights are shared with DDB being the Patron gains a majority share not to exceed 75% of all incomes generated and not less than 10% of all incomes generated by an employed member of the species of "The Ships".

For Daarnulud Design Bureaux:
Your Most Sincere Servant,
Advocate Daansan Thungirson, Esq.
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  #28  
Old May 15th, 2013, 05:49 PM
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Rob has posted a link to his most up to date version of design software.
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Old May 15th, 2013, 11:18 PM
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Default Yes was just looking over the postings before I came over here

The previous versions were rather , ahem limited with regard to applying tech stage effects to hulls so perforce I have been manually going through the process. I have a firm concept for the ship species and the general configuration of the hull and engines at this point.

To address the concerns of the players concerning the Ship and it's reliability.

Ship is limited to acting with it's legs, wings, tail, mouth, and vestigal rocket. it has no control over or interraction with the cybernetic implants. It's intellegence is that of a high functioning animal or a low functioning sophont (compare to a 3 to 5 year old Human). It has some ability to manulipate symbols and communicate such symbols to other Ships. The onboard AI is needed to interface with the Ship and the cybernetics, most humans will concider the AI to BE the ship, they are for the most part unable to communicate directly with the Ship. Ship uses color patterns on it's shell to communicate visually with members of it's ecosystem.

The case of the crusier that was beached, it had a learned fear response after seeing the members of it's squadron killed in rapid succession, while the AI could control the M-drive the Ship was fighting against the AI's efforts to close with the enemy, attempting to turn away and vector to a nearby planet. After the conclusion of the engagement it was found that the ship now had unreasoning flight response when it could see any ships of the type the enemy used in that engagement, even when these ships were "killed", and the Navy board of inquiry decieded to return the ship to it's homeworld, it's usefullness as a warship now marginalized. A fine warhorse that balks at the enemy formations is put to pasture and so was this Ship, a psychological casuality as sure as the rest of the squadron were physical casualities. The cowardace in the face of the enemy finding was needed to invoke DDB's return to homeworld provisions, and were a mercy to the Ship.

It's C5 stat is instinct, with the following knowledges: Swimmer-4, flyer-5, walker-1, orbital mechanics-1. The TL Cap of the Ship Species is TL 2 The form of symboiant that the Ship Species takes when in service to humanity is that of a dominated or assisted carrier, (depending on where you draw the line for being a sophont).
It knows how to change it's vector in space to make a desired change in it's orbit, but it can't tell you the math involved, and it's instictive knowledge is indeed limited to around a 1.3g world, miscalculating orbits for higher or lower gravities.
The Ship species never managed to reach escape velocity on it's own so all of their orbital maneuvering experiance is limited to one world with specific diamater, density, and gravity. They do not have any abilities of navigation beyond that of relating to suborbital mechanics to reach a specific spot on a specific world.

Body structure no head bilateral symmetry TBS, front limbs are WFL rear limbs are FL, tail is rocket nozzle segmented shell with blood, plates, no weapon, and mouth grippers. It's echological nich is omnivore intermittant AND at life stage 1 producer gatherer. Ships are of standard density and generally stay near the surface of water whether flying or swimming
Reproductive strategy is that of producing multitudes of offspring with no parential care beyond that of burying the eggs in warm sands (1 metric ton of mustard seed sized eggs per 100 tons displacement of Ship) the hatchlings are left to fend for themselves in their millions. and begin life as producer gatherers injesting a few grains of sand and some water they find a sunny spot and grow gathering more sand and water as needed. Upon reaching life stage 2 at a size of about a meter the young ships travel the world eating other producers to power a high energy lifestyle, developing the H2O2 pressurized water jets at this life stage, while retaining the producer abilities.
Each additional life stage happens as the ships reach one order of magnitude larger size, however long that takes (10 to 20 years in general)
life stage 6, the ships are no longer able to reach orbit and metomorphize into a floating island, returning to being a producer again, and losing whatever intellegence it had. Floating islands provide habitat for young Ships in life stage 1.
Life stage 6 the island dies and sinks.
so life stage 4,5 = ACS, life stage 5, 6 = BCS
The genetic modifications to the ships extend their time in a life stage by a factor of 100, so a Ship could be in service to man for up to 6,000 years.
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IMTU tc !23 mgt- mt+ TNE+ T4++ T20- T5 ?T5LBB ?tp tg-- ?th ?to ru ge++ !3i+ c++ jt- au+ ls- pi+,-- ta- he+ ?kk ?hi as dr ?ith ?vr ?ne vg+ So++ Zh- Vi-- da Sy
*all non So humaniti are much closer related to Homo Nethanderalis than are So, and are immediately recognizable to So as "cavemen" complete with fur and the other morphological characteristics that were unimportant to Grandfather's need for a better servant

Last edited by warwizard; May 16th, 2013 at 12:44 AM..
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Old May 16th, 2013, 10:21 AM
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I appreciate the extended explanation, but I can't say it has done much to ameliorate my concern that unpredictable conditions could apparently orchestrate a complete or partial loss of control of the ship. I would imagine a decent captain would also be concerned about all this contract mumbo-jumbo between the "ship" and the "company". Rights are being pushed for the "ship" to gain materially from newly discovered worlds. What about the Captain and crew? Why should the "ship" get any rights or gains at all, when it wouldn't understand anything about new planets with just an animal intelligence, and it would have been the work of the Captain and crew that got the "ship" there in the first place. After paying the "purchase" price for one of these ships, why can the owner not do with and dispose of the "ship" as he or she sees fit? Captain Jin would be forced to wonder whether, even after paying the "purchase" price for this "ship", he would actually own it. In his opinion, the only "contract" that should exist at all is between the company that produced the "ship" and the sophont paying the hard-earned money to "buy" the ship, after which the ship gains only the benefits the owner decides it should, and no more. If there is some sort of Imperial Law to protect this "ship" from being used or disposed of in this way or that, I am back to wondering why Captain Jin should consider laying down his hard earned cash for this "ship" over a purely mechanical vessel that would suffer no such constraints.

My fears are also still not alleviated over this "flight" response. It's not like a faulty computer that can be removed and replaced. Captain Jin (or any other character looking to use ship shares on a ship) is being asked to hand over assets he worked for decades to accrue. years and years of labor would be tied up in this vessel that apparently can develop a completely unrepairable "psychosis" that he would then be forced to give up almost the entire value of his existence over. Damage can be repaired, and more importantly, predicted. His skill in command and decision-making would come into play to prevent the loss of his ship when it's mechanical. However, he knows nothing about the "psychology" of biological ships. He will be asked to choose, when considering what to spend his assets on, between this ship and a purely mechanical ship from a standard, tested, pattern with no need for any fears of "psychological" issues coming from the ship itself. So, why should or would he choose this ship over any other? Certainly he would be fascinated by the biological basis, but I'd be willing to bet that, given the stated more widespread use of biological tech in this TU, there are biological ships with almost no native intelligence or instinct at all that would suffer no such issues and would be directed and controlled by purely mechanical means. Why should we not choose one of those?
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