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In the OTU In the Official Traveller Universe. Any milieux that's been published in any edition. Not for discussion of rules except in reference to how they reflect the OTU

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Old August 13th, 2017, 04:17 PM
Hal Hal is offline
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Default Nature of Jump Space and Normal Space

Hello Folks,
Because I'm not the all knowing individual (and wouldn't want the job even if offered it!), got a question for the hive mind of the forums regarding Jump Space...

Using ONLY published material for Classic Traveller initially, and perhaps later on, after we can get a consensus of yes/no...

Does TIME pass at the same rate aboard a ship in jump space as it does in Normal space?

Thought Experiment:

A ship leaves Earth's orbit after moving 100 diameters away from Earth. It enters Jump Space at Midnight January 1st. After 168 hours exactly, have passed aboard the ship, it exits jump space and enters normal space. From the people on Earth's point of view, what time and day is it when the Ship entered normal space? Will both clocks - one on Earth, and the other aboard the ship, show the same time, or will they be different?

What prompted me to think along these lines is this:

If a ship is in jump space, are elements in the normal space still moving parallel to elements within jump space. If the answer is yes, then the next question is this:

If a navigator plots a course that had initially depended on the ship exiting after 604,800 seconds (168 hours) and had intended to deliberately exit at a given point at a given time - what happens if the ship exits earlier or later? Will his intended destination point remain the same - and the targeted world be further away from his target point because it hasn't travelled in time to get to the destination point (if early) or has already travelled past the plotted for destination point, and the ship now has to catch up to the world being where it is in normal space (exiting late).

Nothing I've read in any of the material has stuck to my mind to indicate there is any time difference between ships in jump space and objects that remained in normal space the entire time. But if that's the case, variable time spent in jump space means that the targets will have moved in the time that was varied.

If on the other hand, time is independent of each other such that a ship can be in jump space two years before it exits at PRECISELY its original plotted point, but only one week passes by in normal space - that would be interesting in and off itself (not that I've read of such an event in any official Traveller Universe publication). Likewise, I've never read of any incident in which in the space of 1 week's time aboard the ship, 1,000 years have passed in the normal space, and the ship arrives about where it was supposed to be (ie the spatial location).

For me, it boils down to this:

Jump space has a spatial component
Jump space as a Temporal component

Spatial in the sense that it has to be able to exit at the point that the navigator wants the ship to exit jump space at

Temporal in the sense that time passes aboard the ship, time passes in normal space, and jump duration is a function of time as well (ie 604,800 seconds +/- 10%)

Help?
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Old August 13th, 2017, 05:15 PM
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theirs a few theories about this, but my take:
Quote:
A ship leaves Earth's orbit after moving 100 diameters away from Earth. It enters Jump Space at Midnight January 1st. After 168 hours exactly, have passed aboard the ship, it exits jump space and enters normal space. From the people on Earth's point of view, what time and day is it when the Ship entered normal space? Will both clocks - one on Earth, and the other aboard the ship, show the same time, or will they be different?
time in J space passes at the same rate as N space, allowing for the normal variation caused by relativity (so a clock on a ship would show some minor difference to a clock on the ground, but only in the order of exceedingly small fractions of a second).

I say this because, As far as I know, no variance is mentioned in any canon works, and its presence would be a significant, and something that would affect pretty much any adventure plot that was time dependant.

given that such a difference can be easily tested experimentally within the OTU (as hyper accurate atomic clocks have been a thing for as long as Traveller has, as are in system microjumps), I posit that the absence of evidence is evidence of absence in this case.


bear in mind, though, that their isn't really going to be a Imperium wide "reference time", as each system is moving independently to each other, with its own frame of reference for time dilatation. So everyone's clocks at going to be ticking at slightly different rates anyway. ships will have the same problem, and I expect that the clock on two old ships built at the same time in the same yard would be several seconds different after decades spent travelling between stars and different rates of dilatation.


Quote:
If a ship is in jump space, are elements in the normal space still moving parallel to elements within jump space. If the answer is yes, then the next question is this:

If a navigator plots a course that had initially depended on the ship exiting after 604,800 seconds (168 hours) and had intended to deliberately exit at a given point at a given time - what happens if the ship exits earlier or later? Will his intended destination point remain the same - and the targeted world be further away from his target point because it hasn't travelled in time to get to the destination point (if early) or has already travelled past the plotted for destination point, and the ship now has to catch up to the world being where it is in normal space (exiting late).

Nothing I've read in any of the material has stuck to my mind to indicate there is any time difference between ships in jump space and objects that remained in normal space the entire time. But if that's the case, variable time spent in jump space means that the targets will have moved in the time that was varied.

If on the other hand, time is independent of each other such that a ship can be in jump space two years before it exits at PRECISELY its original plotted point, but only one week passes by in normal space - that would be interesting in and off itself (not that I've read of such an event in any official Traveller Universe publication). Likewise, I've never read of any incident in which in the space of 1 week's time aboard the ship, 1,000 years have passed in the normal space, and the ship arrives about where it was supposed to be (ie the spatial location).
given the apparently unpredictable duration of a jump, it is, as you summise, quite hard to aim for a exit right on the 100D limit of a target world. I think what happens really depends on your interpretation of the jump masking question.

if you go with jump masking forcing a precipitation into N-space, then what a navigator is trying to do is, in essence, "hit" the jump shadow and thus precipitate back into N space on the 100D limit. thus, they would "aim" for a spot that would be inside the 100D limit for the whole possible range of exit times.

if you do not, or go with a "ships exiting inside 100D are Going To Have A Bad Time" they would have to "aim off" so that they miss the jump shadow. the easiest way would be to aim either "outside" the orbital path of the target world, or "behind" it in its orbit, to minimise the chance of a "overrun". I'd expect "outside" to be more common, given jumping behind would require fairly accurate data on its orbital path (which might be available for a well travelled trade route, but might not be so easy to get for backwater systems in the boonies).

In short, they just have to take the fact that their jump is an unknown length into account and "fudge" their nav to include the possibility of a early or late jump.
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Old August 13th, 2017, 05:56 PM
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As always, prefaced with "IMTU"...

Time passes the same in both the Perceived time aboard the ship in Jump space and the time that passes in Normal space.

As a consequence of this, and the fact that things can be plotted as being on an X,Y,Z,T axis (T = time of course), a given location for anything, be it a star, missile, ship, planetoid, planet, etc) can be determined by those four items.

Problem is - IMTU, the only time the physical universe impacts on the Jump Universe, is at the "entry point" and the "Exit point" of Jump Space. JTAS 24 specifies that the way Jumps work is that an entry is ripped open from Normal Space into Jump Space. Then the ship falls into Jump Space, and the jump drive closes the hole, severing the ties of the ship to the Normal space.

But then comes the oddity. TIME. How can time function as the same in both the Jump Universe and the Normal Space universe? Then the description indicates that outside of the "bubble" - things exist normally. People live, breathe, experience the passage of time, etc. Once you exit the bubble, people die, things cease functioning, etc.

So, it seems that a portion of the universe laws function normally within the bubble, including the time reference.

But if time changes within jump space and is concurrent with the passage of time in the normal universe, then spending longer durations in jump space results in planetary/stellar motion as well.

This is not however, spelled out in the Classic Traveller rules or adventures or anything else that I can recall. Traveller evolved over time such that there were the black books (three) and then subsequent publication of SCOUTS etc.

The original black books didn't have rules on stellar diameters. SCOUTS did. The original comments on what affects a jump prior to jump entry were not spelled out to include suns, but in JTAS24, were (maybe sooner than JTAS24, but you get my point, I'm referencing actual material from CT first before going elsewhere).

As noted: Absence of Evidence may or may not be evidence of absence. In addition, simple rules to play by were the goal, not some sort of complex set of rules for planetary motion! On the third hand, we have GDP rules that took into account some facet of planetary motion when it came to normal space navigation (that were largely left out of subsequent publications). So, the whole thing is a mish-mash of stuff strung together - evolving over time, to where we have NO rules for Jump Shadowing etc, to the current rules espoused in T5.

My aim with this thread is to get people to think about the nature of Jump Space and Normal Space and the implications throughout. Even simply asking about the passage of time has implications not seemingly explored in the rules.

When I run Traveller for my campaign, IMTU - I run it as I see fit, and it won't be the same game that others run. But the OTU and the T5 designs and rules philosophies have implications just the same.

But, let's see how many other people who might remember pieces of published material and remember that odd reference that is obscure somewhere, and see if we can pin down that demonic creature known as "JUMP SPACE" and put a collar on it at the very least, or tame it so that people who run their own Universe, can at least know what implications they're glossing over. Why?

Because, if you have gamers like mine, sooner or later, some wise guy is going to ask the question and make the observation "ha, you missed a spot" (so to speak). THAT is the one who will make the observation, and you as GM will say "Nice try, but..." and have a ready made answer. Adds to the GM mystique (or means the GM has a better capacity for spewing BS right?!!!!)

So, can anyone else find references to Jump Space and Time and all that? Yes, there will likely be different "clocks" on each ship that measures time differently than all others. There is even in theory (based on MT) an organization that standardizes units of measure across the Imperium that utilizes an old 365 day calendar, 24 hours to an imperial day, etc. So in theory, there is ONE standardized unit of time measure with which to measure things. More importantly - whether one uses hours and minutes etc - or goonts, trubbs, and Snickersnaks to measure time - it will be measurable. And if there is a variance between the two time keeping/measuring devices, and it is quantifiable and predictable, it will have a specific application to the game universe.

Question still remains...

Did Classic Traveller rules even address the issue of the passage of time relative to the ship's time and the external normal space time? If not, so be it. The question having been raised now, is food for thought. How you digest that question and the answers you bring into play, should be fun.

Maybe "DESTROYED" misjump ships, are ships that won't appear for another 4 billion years at the destination they were intended to arrive at. That a 4 billion year old ship arriving at a star system just two weeks after the ship left its point of origination hasn't happened (or the adventures or short stories or JTAS articles or what have you, would have mentioned it).

So, what else can we find that HAS been mentioned?
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Old August 13th, 2017, 11:36 PM
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MegaTrav had some interesting details, but I don't recall anything out of CT that implied any difference in temporal flow in the two settings.

Book 2 was, "making any jump takes about one week, regardless of the distance travelled." That speaks to normal space time. Fuel consumption seems to assume a week goes by in jump space. Monthly pay likewise. I can't think of anything else in CT that speaks to what's going on in jump space proper other than some nonspecific references to time spent monitoring controls, entertaining passengers or "passing the time". It was intended to be a pretty simple system, with everything in 1-week blocks, so there doesn't appear to be any fiddling under normal circumstances.

On the other hand, on a misjump you roll 1d6 to determine "the number of weeks spent in jump space before the ship re-emerges at its new location." It doesn't specifically say this time passes in the normal universe too. A strictly literal interpretation would be that you "throw one die to determine the number of weeks spent in jump space before the ship re-emerges at its new location" but "any jump takes about one week, regardless of the distance travelled," so only a week passes in the normal universe no matter how many weeks pass in jump space.
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Old August 14th, 2017, 01:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlobrand View Post
MegaTrav had some interesting details, but I don't recall anything out of CT that implied any difference in temporal flow in the two settings.

Book 2 was, "making any jump takes about one week, regardless of the distance travelled." That speaks to normal space time. Fuel consumption seems to assume a week goes by in jump space. Monthly pay likewise. I can't think of anything else in CT that speaks to what's going on in jump space proper other than some nonspecific references to time spent monitoring controls, entertaining passengers or "passing the time". It was intended to be a pretty simple system, with everything in 1-week blocks, so there doesn't appear to be any fiddling under normal circumstances.

On the other hand, on a misjump you roll 1d6 to determine "the number of weeks spent in jump space before the ship re-emerges at its new location." It doesn't specifically say this time passes in the normal universe too. A strictly literal interpretation would be that you "throw one die to determine the number of weeks spent in jump space before the ship re-emerges at its new location" but "any jump takes about one week, regardless of the distance travelled," so only a week passes in the normal universe no matter how many weeks pass in jump space.
CT has two layers of misjump: (1) 1d6d6 parsecs in 1d6 weeks; (2) destroyed

Meanwhile MT specifies 6-8 days, and implies time decouples on minor misjumps... via "Jump Relativity Error"... and has several layers more of misjump.
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Old August 14th, 2017, 04:56 AM
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I can not remember the book it was in (I want to say one of the Mongoose books), but examples were given for misjumps that included a ship arriving at its destination at the correct time and space in real time but hundreds of years had passed in jump space time, leaving the crue as nuthing but dust. There was another example of a ship that misjumped and arrived years later to its destination, but the crew only experienced a week inside of the jump.
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Old August 14th, 2017, 09:07 AM
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just re-read the Mgt 2e core book passage on misjumps. it is explicit in that time on a ship that misjumps can pass differently than time else were. I shall quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongoose traveller 2nd edition, core rulebook, page 148

many misjumps are lethal, causing the jump bubble to collapse early or for time in the bubble to flow differently, so that trillions of years pass inside the bubble and all that comes out the other end is hard radiation caused by protons exceeding their half life....


... at the referees option roll and additional 1d6 - this Is the number of extra days that the ship spends in jump space form the point of view of the crew (the relativity error generated by this misjump causes a difference in perceived time aboard the ship and the rest of the universe)
so, for MgT at least, their is a explicit decoupling in time form the rest of the universe when in J-space.
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Old August 14th, 2017, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlobrand View Post
MegaTrav had some interesting details, but I don't recall anything out of CT that implied any difference in temporal flow in the two settings.

Book 2 was, "making any jump takes about one week, regardless of the distance travelled." That speaks to normal space time. Fuel consumption seems to assume a week goes by in jump space. Monthly pay likewise. I can't think of anything else in CT that speaks to what's going on in jump space proper other than some nonspecific references to time spent monitoring controls, entertaining passengers or "passing the time". It was intended to be a pretty simple system, with everything in 1-week blocks, so there doesn't appear to be any fiddling under normal circumstances.

On the other hand, on a misjump you roll 1d6 to determine "the number of weeks spent in jump space before the ship re-emerges at its new location." It doesn't specifically say this time passes in the normal universe too. A strictly literal interpretation would be that you "throw one die to determine the number of weeks spent in jump space before the ship re-emerges at its new location" but "any jump takes about one week, regardless of the distance travelled," so only a week passes in the normal universe no matter how many weeks pass in jump space.
What page did you spot the "several weeks in jump space" quote?

In the original CT rules set, the power plant had only a certain operational duration based on how much fuel was in the fuel tanks. I also seem to recall there was "battery power" - but I don't know if that recollection was a retcon or house rule by the guy ran Traveller for us in College back in the late 70's and early 80's.

Always looking to collect the data where and when possible. MT would have been the successive generation set of rules that seemingly expanded on CT's rules. Any other rules subsequent to that was largely a matter of "taste" in the sense that they didn't seem to be working off of the original rules per se on an evolutionary basis, but more along the lines of creating something useful for that iteration of Traveller.

T4 was a travel back in time to the early days of the Third Imperium. If memory serves me correctly, there were distinct differences between a TL 15 Anagathic, and a TL 12 Anagathic (this is by memory, so I could easily (EASILY) be wrong!).

Mongoose Traveller has some interesting stuff in it, and the ONE thing I wondered was why CT never really had game mechanics for navigation's effects on a ship's exit point during a jump. Why bother to have a skill if it didn't really get used in game play?

In any event, I was hoping to concentrate on CT first, then work through MT, then Traveller the New Era, then T4, then GURPS TRAVELLER, then Mongoose Traveller (Sorry - but I have ZERO experience with T20, having never purchased the basic books for that system - never really liked D20 or D&D game systems).

But what the heck, let's make it all open, where people reference material from ANY game version of Traveller, and list the pages they spot things in. It can be a JTAS article, perhaps a listing in a periodical (Dragon perhaps?) etc. Anything that they feel would be useful to this discussion.

Thank you all for your input.
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Old August 14th, 2017, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
CT has two layers of misjump: (1) 1d6d6 parsecs in 1d6 weeks; (2) destroyed

Meanwhile MT specifies 6-8 days, and implies time decouples on minor misjumps... via "Jump Relativity Error"... and has several layers more of misjump.
I'm going to have to dig up the MT relativity error issue.

To wit: did time pass such that the jump took LONGER, but time remained the same both in the normal universe and in the ship's confines while in Jump space, or did it introduce a temporal shift in the sense that the ship upon exit from Jump space, found that 7 days passed in its confines, but 21 days passed in the normal space universe.

Traveller: The New Era made some major changes such that it wasn't really recognizably the same "Traveller" as the CT stuff. But, be as that may be - we can look at anything and everything in this!

Thanks!
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Old August 14th, 2017, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gruntfire View Post
I can not remember the book it was in (I want to say one of the Mongoose books), but examples were given for misjumps that included a ship arriving at its destination at the correct time and space in real time but hundreds of years had passed in jump space time, leaving the crue as nuthing but dust. There was another example of a ship that misjumped and arrived years later to its destination, but the crew only experienced a week inside of the jump.
You know I'm going to beg for the cite right? *teasing grin*
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