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Old January 10th, 2021, 05:10 AM
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Question UWPs in the Trojan Reach

I'm don't know a lot about UWPs, sectors and subsectors, but, Drianx just doesn't seem right for me!

I mean, it's A43645A-E, but does it really have an A-class starport? What does really represent TL? I thought it was about the ability to produce goods of any kind at that given level, but Drinax doesn't seem able to create anything!

Wouldn't it be better a C or D starport and a much lower TL? Why is the Palace the focus of the UWP instead of the Vespexers?

In a related issue (for me, of course), wouldn't you say that Trojan Reach has too many high TL systems for what it is? I'm thinking of Spinward Marches, with just a bunch of systems about highers than stellar.
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Old January 10th, 2021, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightRaven View Post

I mean, it's A43645A-E, but does it really have an A-class starport? What does really represent TL? I thought it was about the ability to produce goods of any kind at that given level, but Drinax doesn't seem able to create anything!
It doesn't have the capacity to crank out squadrons of destroyers, as you might think of another Class A but it can, in theory, do the work on one ship to qualify (which will be useful to players in the Drinax campaigns).

As for TLs themselves, they cover a broad range of descriptions - they have to, it is a big galaxy.

In the case of Drinax, it is the prevailing (and likely unsustainable, unless the Drinax campaign really pushes things along) tech that the residents enjoy right now. Take another survey in 100 years and it will likely be very different.

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Wouldn't it be better a C or D starport and a much lower TL? Why is the Palace the focus of the UWP instead of the Vespexers?
Because King Oleb shouts louder than the Vespexers. Or, to put it another way, the palace is the legitimate government on the planet while the Vespexers are pretty much ignored from a galactic point of view.

If they rise up and sack the palace, the UWP would shift to reflect that.

Again, if you look at descriptions of other systems across Charted Space, it is not all that unusual for an oppressed/disadvantaged population to be completely ignored by the UWP. Once you get beyond the Size and Atmosphere codes, UWPs become less of an absolute (although, should be said, even Atmosphere codes can change across a world's surface, especially when you get to extremes of gravity).

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Originally Posted by NightRaven View Post
In a related issue (for me, of course), wouldn't you say that Trojan Reach has too many high TL systems for what it is? I'm thinking of Spinward Marches, with just a bunch of systems about highers than stellar.
The Reach is the badlands, sure, but there are a lot of powerful parties with interests in it - the Hierate, Imperium and GeDeCo to name three.

Remember, the Reach as it stands right now is just a snapshot in time and things are always in motion. If you read between the lines in some of the system descriptions you will see there is a lot of development going on in some systems that is somewhat... artificial, if you see what I mean.

Hope that all helps!
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Old January 10th, 2021, 08:23 AM
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Thanks for your answers, but my doubts are still there.

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Originally Posted by MongooseMatt View Post
It doesn't have the capacity to crank out squadrons of destroyers, as you might think of another Class A but it can, in theory, do the work on one ship to qualify (which will be useful to players in the Drinax campaigns).
From MGP Starports:
Quote:
In order to achieve the accolade of Class A status, a Starport must include both a Highport and Downport, [...]
Which, for me, disqualifies Drinax as a Class A. I mean, we're talking about giving a big parking lot the same label as the Rhylanor Starport, right? And it doesn't match the description for a Class B neither, «Hundreds of landing pads» is what the book sets as a minimum.

It's like the sector would have been designed only as an excuse for the campaign!

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In the case of Drinax, it is the prevailing (and likely unsustainable, unless the Drinax campaign really pushes things along) tech that the residents enjoy right now. Take another survey in 100 years and it will likely be very different.
This is what I find most annoying. I understand that higher classes, richest portions of society can enjoy up to 2 TL higher than their fellow citizens. Giving the system TL of E seems too much. When was the last survey? 1068? I mean, they've been selling silverware for 200 years? I apply some degree of suspension of disbelief, obviously, but me and my players need some anchor to credibility.

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Because King Oleb shouts louder than the Vespexers. Or, to put it another way, the palace is the legitimate government on the planet while the Vespexers are pretty much ignored from a galactic point of view.
That make sense. Now it seems I didn't give it too much of a tought...

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Originally Posted by MongooseMatt View Post
The Reach is the badlands, sure, but there are a lot of powerful parties with interests in it - the Hierate, Imperium and GeDeCo to name three.
This is one of those things that doesn't click with me. I mean, there are much bigger things going on in the Marches, bigger players and higher bids! Also, there's no relationship between having a high TL in a system with having large parties with interest in the zone. With that in mind, lots of Middle East countries would be in a very different state of development. Don't you think?

As I said, thank your for your answers, and mind my English. It's not my first language and I could sound angry, or harsh, or anything like that when I don't intend to!
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Old January 10th, 2021, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightRaven View Post
Thanks for your answers, but my doubts are still there.

From MGP Starports:


Which, for me, disqualifies Drinax as a Class A. I mean, we're talking about giving a big parking lot the same label as the Rhylanor Starport, right? And it doesn't match the description for a Class B neither, «Hundreds of landing pads» is what the book sets as a minimum.
One of the things adopted by MGT from every earlier version of Traveller is the port code does not reflect the size of the port. Only the services available.

Drinax is not the only Class A port with a few people in the system. The best ones are trying to explain how a world with a population of a small family still manage to support a Class A port. Do they actually build starships, or just have the capability to do so, but really, ordering one will take an extraordinary amount of time before you can take delivery.

I've done trade analysis (the results are in the Traveller Wiki if you're interested) that determine the size of the port (not just the capabilities), and find ports which require more people to operate the port than live in the system.

The requirement of a Class A and Class B ports to have both a high port or down port is not an absolute. You can have worlds where there is only one or the other, usually due to conditions in the system.

If your main world has a insidious atmosphere (think Venus), it may well not have a Downport, as the only ships that can land there require special sealing.

If your star has a problem with flares, the EM Pulses may make keeping an orbital port working correctly, but the system may have a good downport, protected under the atmosphere (and ground) of the main world.
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Old January 10th, 2021, 07:36 PM
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Don't treat the rules as some absolute reality, and use the UWP as a takeoff point for creating story and conflict.



Maybe the sovereign bribed the authorities or has an in or patron that keeps the TL rating up for appearances and what little trade can be lured in.


Maybe the ruler has been deficit spending/financing to keep up that TL and starship build capability, those bonds paying for it are coming due and the King is frantic to stay one step ahead of the fiscal megacorps that are coming for him- or you sign on with the mercs coming to collect.


Maybe there is a specialized custom yacht builder that is also servicing the starport franchise, with side action all about that company.


Don't forget robots- in fact, that's why they have to keep that TL up else the TL E robots break down and the whole economy comes crashing down without them.


UWP is not a straitjacket, it's an invitation and challenge to create something new.
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Old January 11th, 2021, 03:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjoneslo View Post
One of the things adopted by MGT from every earlier version of Traveller is the port code does not reflect the size of the port. Only the services available.
I appreciate your answer, but Drinax lacks a shipyard. Do you still think it qualifies as Class A? I mean, where do you (not you you; you them ) draw the line?

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I've done trade analysis (the results are in the Traveller Wiki if you're interested) that determine the size of the port (not just the capabilities), and find ports which require more people to operate the port than live in the system.
How can I find that information in the wiki?

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Originally Posted by kilemall View Post
Don't treat the rules as some absolute reality, and use the UWP as a takeoff point for creating story and conflict.
[...]
UWP is not a straitjacket, it's an invitation and challenge to create something new.
I think I strongly disagree with this, kilemall. If I was running a game lighter on the rules side, or without links between the subsystems and the data, I'd understand your advice. But, if I don't take UWP seriously, what can I do with a trade system based on modifiers extracted from the date in the UWP?

If Drinax doesn't have a real TL-14, the system shouldn't have the Ht trade code and, in that case, the roll for equipment availability (from CSC p.4) would be different. The list of trade goods could not reflect things like Advanced Weapons or Vehicles!

I know I'm stubborn as a mule, but it doesn't mean I can't change my point of view. It's just that I cannot see Drinax as anything but a plot device, forced into the universe to justify "a" story.

This is just me asking why are things like they are. I know I could just modify the UWP, tell my players that those are the changes from the latest survey and the campaign wouldn't change a bit. What I'm looking for it's a rationale behind these numbers, codes, etc.

If I didn't say it before, thanks to all of you for your answers and the time you took to satisfy my curiosity.
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Old January 11th, 2021, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightRaven View Post
I appreciate your answer, but Drinax lacks a shipyard. Do you still think it qualifies as Class A? I mean, where do you (not you you; you them ) draw the line?
I have not read the Drinax book, so I'm not sure how much I'm trying to retcon or explain is missing from the descriptions and maps of the world. But as you point out, Drinax does not have the population to support a significant shipyard, or really anything much of one. So the shipyard won't be a very big place.

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How can I find that information in the wiki?
If you go to the Sector article, and look for the green background in the right hand infobox. There is a link to a Trade Map and the detailed economic information.

The map key explains all the parts of both pages.
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Old January 11th, 2021, 08:10 AM
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Wow! I really need to read that!! What did you use to generate the numbres? G:FT?

The starport A is what used to be King Oleb private landing pad in his floating palace. Which have the population of Monaco, but crammed (the palace, not the starport). In the map of the palace (without scale) the landing pad appears to be something around 1/6th of the whole structure.
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Old January 11th, 2021, 12:04 PM
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All of the starport employees are imported labor and not counted in the census since they're not citizens. It's a whole second class society thing going on there that no one talks about.

...or something.
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Old January 11th, 2021, 02:21 PM
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The Imperium has standards.

Not necessarily anyone else, or theirs differ.
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