Traveller Store CotI Features New Posts Mark Forums Read Register


Go Back TravellerRPG.com > Citizens of the Imperium > Random Static > Non-Traveller Gaming

Non-Traveller Gaming A forum specifically for discussing those other games we like to play.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old June 21st, 2018, 09:27 PM
aramis's Avatar
aramis aramis is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Anchorage, AK, USofA
Posts: 28,359
Gallery : 53
Visit aramis's Blog
aramis has disabled reputation
Send a message via ICQ to aramis Send a message via AIM to aramis Send a message via Yahoo to aramis
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
My guess is that it's not wargame that has changed. Its the whorld at large.
No, even the wargames on offer have changed.

Let's take one of the Hardcore "Modern" wargames...

Hammer of the Scots. About 50 units, each with 3 or 4 damage steps, on a 1/2" thick 1.25" square counter. About 40 board spaces. Plays in 2-6 hours to completion, depending a lot on player speed. I've personally had games completed in 3 hours.

Compare it to a much older game for the same war (name of which I forget; I only saw it played, and that was over 22 years ago; I think it might be Robert the Bruce from 1978; it looks like what I remember - 240 counters)... it had a full 108 counter sheet for each side, and a hex map, with about 30x40 (~1200 hexes) of which around 800 were valid. I've been told it plays out in 6-12 hours. (It's sister game, Kingmaker, I never saw completed in less than 4.5 hours)

Why do we see this? Because, largely, the pace of life is somewhat faster - that is, people tend to do more, and thus have less time for games.

Original SFB was intended for a 2-hour simple duel timeframe (evidence: Tournament rules time limit)
Federation Commander aims for a 1 hour time for the same battle.
A small fleet battle in SFB was a 3-5 hour event for 2, or 2-5 for 1 player per ship.
In FC, it aims for 1-2 hours, by using simplified ships (half the boxes, including half the weapons).
Big time saver? reduced math and no Energy Allocation Phase (IIRC, your speed gives you a set pile of power which is spent at time of use).

Original Car Wars was intended for 0.5 to 15+ hours prep, and 2-6 hours playtime, maybe 1 hour for a simple road duel.
Modern is aiming for 15 min prep and 30 min playtime.
Osprey's Gaslands is pretty much 15 min prep, and 1 hour playtime (double for newbs or Analysis Paralysis types)

Even RPG's... it used to be that the default session time was assumed to be 4-5 hours. Now, many newer games presume a 2 hour session. I won't even drive to game for less than 3 hours.

Many of the economic engine type games have faster modern equivalents...

There are exceptions. The 18XX line is still, typically, 4-6 hours per play. Twilight Imperium is an 8-14 hour monstrosity.

But, in general, what's getting played most is shorter, and thus what's being bought most is shorter, and thus what designers are designing is intended for shorter plays.

Even D&D. The typical DDAL module is written for 3 hours. A typical AD&D 2E module was intended for at least 6-8 hours, often 12-18 hours. (And that's before things like G1-2-3, which is 3× 1-5 hour adventures in one book, or D1-2, which can be as little as 2 hours, or as much as 30 hours, depending upon exact mix of PC's and their strategies.) The current big D&D Hardcover modules are assumed to be roughly 30-80 hours of play, again depending upon approach. I had one group finish Hoard in about 30 hours of play; another took 70 or so - 20 sessions at DDAL (7-10pm), and we often ran 10-15 over, and started up to 15 minutes early because the table was full already.

3 hour sessions suck, BTW. I'm running 3.5 hour sessions twice a week in public space. I'm running a 5 hour session a week via VOIP , as well - that group (love the bunch of them, nutty as they are) takes about twice as long over VOIP as my local FTF groups, and when they were my FTF DDAL game, they took about 1.5× what I was able to do down here...

Now, that group back in Alaska? They game 3+ nights a week. Fridays at G's, some thursdays at the store, Saturdays at G's, and Sundays they meet at G's and VOIP me in to GM. Except when G hits a deadline. (He's a published freelance author now, for a major game company. If he wants, he can tell you himself.)
__________________
~ Aramis
aramis.hostman.us /trav
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
Marquis of the Solomani Rim (SOLO 0606)
Marquis of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2410)
Baron of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2231)
Knight of the Iridium Throne (CORE 1434)
Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
Knight of Deneb (REFT 2239)
SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
MCG - Battle of Boughene
TAS: William Hostman (CORR 2506)
TAS: Bearer (DAIB 1326)
IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu± dt± f+ fs++ ge± ih- inf± j± jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
Unless there is bold red text, presume my posts to be my personal material only.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old June 21st, 2018, 09:59 PM
RandyB RandyB is offline
Citizen: SOC-12
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 413
Gallery : 0
RandyB Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whartung View Post
Traveller can be as cinematic as you want it. it doesn't all have to be Imperial politics and microeconomics. Always time to assault the space station and blast your way through doors with RAM grenades.
Can we engrave that onto (not over) the doors into this place?
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old June 21st, 2018, 10:41 PM
McPerth's Avatar
McPerth McPerth is online now
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 7,104
Gallery : 0
Visit McPerth's Blog
McPerth has disabled reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
No, even the wargames on offer have changed.

Of course they have, along with the wole world, that's what I mean, though maybe I didn't express myself too well

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
Why do we see this? Because, largely, the pace of life is somewhat faster - that is, people tend to do more, and thus have less time for games.
True, and we're used to more immediate results too. World has changes, mentality and uses of people have changed with it, and games also, as if players change (either due to generational changes or for the old ones becoming older), games must too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
Let's take one of the Hardcore "Modern" wargames...

Hammer of the Scots. About 50 units, each with 3 or 4 damage steps, on a 1/2" thick 1.25" square counter. About 40 board spaces. Plays in 2-6 hours to completion, depending a lot on player speed. I've personally had games completed in 3 hours.

Compare it to a much older game for the same war (name of which I forget; I only saw it played, and that was over 22 years ago; I think it might be Robert the Bruce from 1978; it looks like what I remember - 240 counters)... it had a full 108 counter sheet for each side, and a hex map, with about 30x40 (~1200 hexes) of which around 800 were valid. I've been told it plays out in 6-12 hours. (It's sister game, Kingmaker, I never saw completed in less than 4.5 hours)
This Hammer of the Scots you tell about reminds me of Avalon Hill's Napoleon, where the Waterloo campaign was represented in a similar way. And it was published in 1977 (ITTR it was the first board wargame I ever played)...

Of course many other games represented even there the same campaign with more counters, carton ones, etc, even from the same game company (AH's Waterloo, published in 1962).
__________________
Duke of ShaiaVland 3215 B64A998-E
Marquis of Ashtagz Tyui SR 1818C548786-8
SEH for actions in Extolay

I'm not afraid about bullets, what scares me is the speed at which they're incoming.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old June 21st, 2018, 10:51 PM
Blue Ghost's Avatar
Blue Ghost Blue Ghost is offline
Knight
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Foster City, CA
Posts: 7,502
Gallery : 0
Visit Blue Ghost's Blog
Blue Ghost has disabled reputation
Default

whartung, I guess my perspective is that I've had to fight for over 30 years to game the way I wanted to because I had some family overseas who are very religious, and lived in mortal fear of the big D&D scare back in the late 70s and early 80s. And I've had to literally fight to organize gaming sessions the way I wanted to, to enjoy the atmosphere and fiction that the games presented (like Traveller or SFB, what not), and now that I've been able to clamp down on these people (who had near infinite resources), I find, again upon superficial examination, that the material offered at the last few cons I went to, had been given a nice coat of paint, gone mainstream for the masses, but were not the genre nor strategic and tactical material that I wanted to engage in.

I don't want to bare too much of my soul here on a public forum, but it's like all these decades I can now finally game the way I want to, and the material offered isn't what I want, and it doesn't appear, at prima facia, to be what had been offered in the past.

In that vein it's part of why I haven't posted any fan fic.

So... wasps nests gone from outside the home, I managed to find all that archived SFB material (that truly was a natural high) … I'm as skilled at Car Wars as I ever was (even if I am a bit forgetful...curses), I'm going on hiatus for bit.

No one plays Ice War, but loads of people still play Ogre and GEV. SFB isn't the space combat juggernaut it once was, but I still found all that unauthorized material that I thought was really cool.

Dim the lights … stand by to jump … one … two ... three … JUMP!
__________________
Sir Ghost, Knight of Imperial occupied Terra, Sol.
Travels with Blue Ghost; musings of a knight of the Imperium.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old June 22nd, 2018, 04:08 PM
kilemall kilemall is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,046
Gallery : 0
kilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizen
Default

Ice War rocks.


Any game is as alive or dead as the players that play it.


We're still playing House Divided, including a house trophy with challenge rules (Union Bear). The gussied up modern version rules are nice and play a bit different then the earlier optional rules ones.



On the other hand, never ever played StarForce, the first wargame I ever bought. Too weird for most.


I have a hard time believing with all that population in California that there are no old school game groups around.
__________________
YUMV- Your Universe May Vary.
YOMD- Your Opinion May Differ.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old June 22nd, 2018, 05:29 PM
coliver988's Avatar
coliver988 coliver988 is offline
Baron
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Asheville
Posts: 1,177
Gallery : 54
Visit coliver988's Blog
coliver988 Citizen+coliver988 Citizen+
Default

Well...the gaming world has seen a resurgence due to a much lower cost of entry (anyone can generate a PDF and upload it to a variety of online game distributors), the growing popularity of role playing games in general (now it is all cool to play those games with the odd dice - there are even professional dungeon masters, and companies hire them for team building!); and the rise of Kickstarter and other similar sites where it is easy to gauge interest and create games.

Yes, a lot of the newer games do not have the intricacy and complex simulations (I played, and lost, a lot of the old Avalon Hill games. Mind you the games took a few weeks to play at times...). But there is now seeming rise of "bring back the old stuff". OSR RPGs are amazingly popular, old games are being brought back (just got my Triplanetary game - HUGE board! - and looking forward to playing that; and soon The Fantasy Trip will be on KS. Still have my Melee, Advance Melee and Advanced Wizard. Thought I had TFT but either I gave it away, never had it, or lost )

So there are new games that can have the same complexity and simulation level - I recently saw one on KS for some specific battle in the 1700s. Limited and they maxed out on the copies they were developing.

You just have to look - old school games and gaming are available.
__________________
Mostly lurking about...CT is still my favorite with T5 as a neat tool box to plunder.


Duke of The Solomani RimLANGELOS A4249A6-FLangelos Write Up AlphaTrane / Glisten 2038
Baron, IpkurIpkur C564543-9Ipkur Write Up AlphaRomar / Glisten 2140
Knight of the Third Imperium [x2]Rhylanor A434934-FCyan / Trojan Reach 2102
Knight of the Third ImperiumIkuna E000410-AKryslion / Trojan Reach 2002
MCG For Conspicuous GallantryThe Assault On AlellSelshor / Trojan Reach 1402
Travellers Aid Society 2798Dudid B510526-9Bloghttp://traveller-ct.blogspot.com/
Traveller Github spacehttps://github.com/COliver988/Traveller
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old June 22nd, 2018, 06:05 PM
Condottiere Condottiere is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,554
Gallery : 0
Condottiere Citizen+Condottiere Citizen+Condottiere Citizen+
Default

The tendency towards realism and complexity is taken up by computer games, for the players who prefer that,

You want ease of play in an environment that is rich with any number of types of entertainment that is now available, at least during game time.

Less arguments, and you can get right into the thing you're there to do, play.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old June 23rd, 2018, 03:27 PM
Blue Ghost's Avatar
Blue Ghost Blue Ghost is offline
Knight
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Foster City, CA
Posts: 7,502
Gallery : 0
Visit Blue Ghost's Blog
Blue Ghost has disabled reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Condottiere View Post
The tendency towards realism and complexity is taken up by computer games, for the players who prefer that,

You want ease of play in an environment that is rich with any number of types of entertainment that is now available, at least during game time.

Less arguments, and you can get right into the thing you're there to do, play.
Counter Strike, in all its forms, is arguably Snapshot, minus the 3I.
__________________
Sir Ghost, Knight of Imperial occupied Terra, Sol.
Travels with Blue Ghost; musings of a knight of the Imperium.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What rules or tables have you changed already? Leitz Cepheus General 53 July 8th, 2017 11:52 PM
TravellerMap changed again! Includes Die Weltbund! dmccoy1693 Mongoose Traveller 12 March 21st, 2014 01:34 PM
Will the UWP system have to be changed? Rev Round Random Static 14 April 10th, 2009 10:32 PM
What would you like to see changed about MGT? dmccoy1693 Mongoose Traveller 115 October 10th, 2008 05:09 PM

This website and its contents are copyright ©2010-2013 Far Future Enterprises. All rights reserved. Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises .
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright (c) 2010-2013, Far Future Enterprises. All Rights Reserved.