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  #11  
Old May 23rd, 2019, 11:33 PM
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Steam turbines verses Diesels. One steam turbine on the Iowa-class put out 53,000 shaft horsepower. That was about the same as the total output of the Diesel plant of the German pocket battleships. They used Diesels to get maximum range for commerce raiding, not because they were cheaper. Diesels of a power output equal to one steam turbine of an Iowa-class did not exist during WW2. You are talking about 212,000 shaft horsepower for the ship. I do not believe any Diesels close to that power exist today. The German pocket battleship were the only large warships powered by Diesels in WW2.
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  #12  
Old May 24th, 2019, 01:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
Steam turbines verses Diesels. One steam turbine on the Iowa-class put out 53,000 shaft horsepower. That was about the same as the total output of the Diesel plant of the German pocket battleships. They used Diesels to get maximum range for commerce raiding, not because they were cheaper. Diesels of a power output equal to one steam turbine of an Iowa-class did not exist during WW2. You are talking about 212,000 shaft horsepower for the ship. I do not believe any Diesels close to that power exist today. The German pocket battleship were the only large warships powered by Diesels in WW2.

Hmm, actually there ARE 100,000 HP each diesel engines, but they are designed for the big but relatively slow and not heavy armored container ships as in the following story-


https://wolfstreet.com/2018/05/28/th...acturers-face/


Two such engines could match the Iowa's HP, although I'm not sure if it would be at an acceptable cost of volume.
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Old May 24th, 2019, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
Steam turbines verses Diesels. One steam turbine on the Iowa-class put out 53,000 shaft horsepower. That was about the same as the total output of the Diesel plant of the German pocket battleships. They used Diesels to get maximum range for commerce raiding, not because they were cheaper. Diesels of a power output equal to one steam turbine of an Iowa-class did not exist during WW2. You are talking about 212,000 shaft horsepower for the ship. I do not believe any Diesels close to that power exist today. The German pocket battleship were the only large warships powered by Diesels in WW2.
The comparison is still ...
  • Cost/HP
  • Volume/HP
If the difference in Cost/HP for a Diesel and a Steam (irrespective of size) is not significant, then the Listing for COST under the CE VDS for a new TL 5 Steam Turbine Power Plant will be IDENTICAL to the existing COST listing for a TL 5 Internal Combustion Power Plant.

So do you have any Cost/HP data for WW2 'Diesel Engines' vs 'Steam Boilers and Turbines' [irrespective of size]?

What about any data on VOLUME/HP for WW2 'Diesel Engines' vs 'Steam Boilers and Turbines' [irrespective of size]?

If the Cost/HP or Volume/HP numbers are significantly different, then it is worth adding a new "TL 5 Steam Turbine" Power plant and if the numbers are not significantly different, then it is not.

My data showed that around the turn of the century (about when I stopped looking for data for my TL 4 needs) the efficiency of Triple and Quadruple Expansion Steam Engines with water tube boilers, Steam Turbines, and Diesel engines was about equal. Details on the application determined preference (turbines generated higher RPMs for fast ships; Expansion allowed large engines for giant passenger ships; diesel required smaller crews for smaller sizes). I also read that the need for fresh water gave diesels a bunkerage advantage over steam in saltwater applications.
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Old May 24th, 2019, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
The comparison is still ...
  • Cost/HP
  • Volume/HP
If the difference in Cost/HP for a Diesel and a Steam (irrespective of size) is not significant, then the Listing for COST under the CE VDS for a new TL 5 Steam Turbine Power Plant will be IDENTICAL to the existing COST listing for a TL 5 Internal Combustion Power Plant.

So do you have any Cost/HP data for WW2 'Diesel Engines' vs 'Steam Boilers and Turbines' [irrespective of size]?

What about any data on VOLUME/HP for WW2 'Diesel Engines' vs 'Steam Boilers and Turbines' [irrespective of size]?

If the Cost/HP or Volume/HP numbers are significantly different, then it is worth adding a new "TL 5 Steam Turbine" Power plant and if the numbers are not significantly different, then it is not.

My data showed that around the turn of the century (about when I stopped looking for data for my TL 4 needs) the efficiency of Triple and Quadruple Expansion Steam Engines with water tube boilers, Steam Turbines, and Diesel engines was about equal. Details on the application determined preference (turbines generated higher RPMs for fast ships; Expansion allowed large engines for giant passenger ships; diesel required smaller crews for smaller sizes). I also read that the need for fresh water gave diesels a bunkerage advantage over steam in saltwater applications.
Do I understand you correctly that there are no provisions in the rules for steam turbine plants? I have the rules. I just cannot believe the omission of steam turbine plants.
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  #15  
Old May 24th, 2019, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
Electro-mechanical ballistic computers started being developed with the advent of longer range gunnery prior to World War 1, along with the rise of anti-aircraft gunnery. As I stated the fire control systems for the U.S. Navy were developed and first fielded in the 1930s.

For information on World War 2 naval fire control systems, you need to look at N.J.M. Campbell’s Naval Weapons of World War Two. That is available only in hard copy. Yes, I have had it for about 20 years or so..
I don't intend to discuss you any of this, as I concede you have quite superior knowledge tan myslef about RW ship design.

What I am saying here, is that IMHO the Iowas, as, AFAIK, curring edge WWII tech, should be TL6, with the changes this may bring.

Set's see the details in CT/MT among TL5 and TL6 (I don't know if CE1 has changed this), according MT:RC pages 28/29, more or less equivalent to the tables in TTB pages 86-87:

FieldTL5TL6
Time span(TTB)Circa 1900-1939Circa 1940-1969
Time span (MT:RM) Circa 19302Circa 19502
Personal militaryGrenades, shotgunsAutomatic weapons, SMGs
Heavy WeaponsArmored cars, MortarsNukes, Missiles
ComputersElectroni. Model 1Electronic, Model 1 Bis
CommunicationsRadio, RadarTelevision
Land TransportGround Cars, Tracked vehiclesAmphibian vehicles, Advanced ATV/AFVs
Water transportSteel hulls, Early subsAdvanced subs, Scubba
Air TransportAirplanes, seaplanedEarly jets, Helicopters


As you can see, at grosso modo TL5 is WWI, while TL6 is WWII/Korean war, and the Iowas would be, more or less, early TL6. I don't know how this can change this design, quite an interesting exercise in any case.

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Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
The Korean War was much closer to WW2 in terms of equipment used than later. The widespread use of jets clouds the issue.
Fully agreed, as I stated both, in my former post and above.
Note 1: I previously said T5, sorry for this, my fault
Note 2: despite the dates, see that the detailed table puts it more closer to TTB
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  #16  
Old May 24th, 2019, 03:48 PM
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We need to remember that the CE SRD is based on the T20 SRD and the MgT SRD ... so the publishers deliberately aimed for greater compatibility with Mongoose Traveller 1st Edition which had an expiring "Traveller" Trademark license for 3rd party publishers.

This is derived from Mongoose Traveller rather than directly from Classic Traveller. We should check the MgT TL dates and descriptions if anyone wants to claim something belongs in another TL (or the ones printed in the CE SRD if it has them).
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  #17  
Old May 24th, 2019, 04:49 PM
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10. Determine additional components (optional)

The TL 9 Destroyer has no additional components (except Cargo Space), so I will not add any either for my first attempt. There are several available at TL 5 that might make sense and are worth reconsidering if I have extra space or for future designs:
  • Cargo Hold (TL 1) ... free with left over space.
  • Crane (TL 4) ... Real ship had sea planes, a crane would be useful.
  • Detention Cells (TL 3) ... Brig?
  • Entertainment System (TL 5) ... Movies and Radio for crew?
  • Fire Extinguishers (TL 4) ... Real ship probably had it.
  • Galley (TL 3) ... Is this included with Staterooms? Need to read up on the details later.
  • Operating Theater (TL 5) ... Modern warship's have one, not sure about WW2 Battleships. Probably want one.
  • Refrigeration (TL 5) ... Included in Galley, or do we need separate cold storage for food?
  • Wet Bar (TL 2) ... Admiral and staff definitely need one of these ... [LOL]

On a ship as large as a Battleship, the additional spaces and cost of these items would probably be minimal. I'll look hard at them for future designs.
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Old May 24th, 2019, 06:32 PM
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11. Determine turrets, fixed mounts, etc. (optional)
a. Determine weapons (optional)


I expect to have the most difficulty matching Real Life to the Game Rules in the area of Armaments on the Battleship. This has nothing to do with the CE SRD and everything to do with the history of the Traveller game that it is built from. Giant Naval Artillery has never played a major role in Traveller from Classic Traveller on, so I expect to find little along the lines of the 406mm (16") Gun of which the Iowa Class mounted 9 (3 per turret x 3 turrets). So let's go through the rules and see what IS available:


gun ports ... Not applicable. If you reach the point where you are defending a Battleship with shotguns and sub-machine guns, everything has already gone wrong.

We get 1 WEAPON POINT per 5 tons, or 12,000/5 = 2400 weapon points for the Battleship and all weapon mounts are fixed.


500 ton Barbette:
The main guns are housed in a "Barbette" that is about 500 dTons (6000 spaces) and contain 3 guns per Barbette. (20m dia x 24m tall cylinder). The "6000 space Large Turret" requires 100 weapon points for the turret (1 per 60 spaces). Each weapon beyond the first will require an additional weapon point. By the rules, the 80 "weapons" (Artillery Gun-TL 4) that comprise each 16" gun will use 80 weapon points (for coaxial mounts) in addition to the 100 weapon points for the turret itself. Three 16" guns in a 6000 space turret will require 100 wp for the turret + 3 x 80 wp for the guns ... 340 Weapon Points per 3 Gun 500 ton Barbette.

Now to calculate spaces inside the 6000 space "Turret": 3 spaces for gunner plus spaces for weapons. The best damage available to us in a projectile at TL 5 is the Artillery Gun-TL 4 at 8D6 and 24 spaces per gun. Since there are three 16" guns per turret, I want each gun to be something less than 1999 spaces (6000-3 = 5997; 5997/3 = 1999). So that means that each 16" gun can be replaced by 80 (rounding down) Artillery Gun-TL 4 firing an (80x8D6) shot at 1 target. Three 16" guns fit in a turret so that makes:
  • 3 spaces gunner
  • 1920 spaces Gun 1 (80 x Artillery Gun-TL 4 @ 24 spaces)
  • 1920 spaces Gun 2 (80 x Artillery Gun-TL 4 @ 24 spaces)
  • 1920 spaces Gun 3 (80 x Artillery Gun-TL 4 @ 24 spaces)
  • 237 spaces unused (allows for 79 additional crewmen at 3 spaces each)

Mounting three 500 ton Barbette will use 1020 weapon points and 18,000 spaces, while providing 720 Artillery Gun-TL 4.

Armaments
  • Three 500 ton Barbettes [Primary Armament]
  • Large Turrets (x3) = - 9 spaces
  • Artillery Gun-TL 4 (x720) = - 17,280 spaces [1020 weapon points taken]
  • Bonus gunners & loaders (x 237) = - 711 spaces

(to be continued)
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Old May 24th, 2019, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
I don't intend to discuss you any of this, as I concede you have quite superior knowledge tan myslef about RW ship design.

What I am saying here, is that IMHO the Iowas, as, AFAIK, curring edge WWII tech, should be TL6, with the changes this may bring.

Set's see the details in CT/MT among TL5 and TL6 (I don't know if CE1 has changed this), according MT:RC pages 28/29, more or less equivalent to the tables in TTB pages 86-87:

FieldTL5TL6
Time span(TTB)Circa 1900-1939Circa 1940-1969
Time span (MT:RM) Circa 19302Circa 19502
Personal militaryGrenades, shotgunsAutomatic weapons, SMGs
Heavy WeaponsArmored cars, MortarsNukes, Missiles
ComputersElectroni. Model 1Electronic, Model 1 Bis
CommunicationsRadio, RadarTelevision
Land TransportGround Cars, Tracked vehiclesAmphibian vehicles, Advanced ATV/AFVs
Water transportSteel hulls, Early subsAdvanced subs, Scubba
Air TransportAirplanes, seaplanedEarly jets, Helicopters


As you can see, at grosso modo TL5 is WWI, while TL6 is WWII/Korean war, and the Iowas would be, more or less, early TL6. I don't know how this can change this dsing, quite an interesting exercise in any case.



Fully agreed, as I stated both, in my former post and above.
Note 1: I previously said T5, sorry for this, my fault
Note 2: despite the dates, see that the detailed table puts it more closer to TTB
McPerth, I really would rather not get into an extended discuss of correct Tech Levels for various items of equipment. I do view battleships as being at the following levels: ships up to and including the pre-Dreadnaught battleships are Tech Level 4, ships from the HMS Dreadnaught to the USS Iowa-class are Tech Level 5, and all ships built post-WW 2 are Tech Level 6.

There are some mistakes in the tables you posted. The most severe are the grenades and mortars, both dating from the 1600s.
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Old May 25th, 2019, 04:29 AM
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I don't think "double occupancy staterooms" would describe 20th century naval accommodations. An enlisted bunk might be half the size of a low berth, including an allowance for the narrow walkway between the racks (3 high on each side in some cases). An officer's room would certainly be no more than 1 dton, and that would include about dton for it's share of the corridor.
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