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The Fleet Ship designs, strategies, and tactics.

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  #1  
Old November 19th, 2020, 08:43 PM
Proneutron Proneutron is offline
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Default What would general purpose freighters look like?

I mean based on Cannon rules. On a cost accounting basis I see cargo space and maybe Low berths. Pretty much J1 with a way to carry a J1 worth of fuel in the cargo hold so can it do a J1 + 1 when needed and in the tonnage range Grav_Moped has sussed out. Maybe an optimal number of LBs based in trade rules as they can earn more than freight, tonnage wise. No or little other passenger space due to costs.

Not as conductive to adventures as no mysterious passengers but economics would cause those design changes I think.
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Old November 20th, 2020, 12:21 AM
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LBB2 rules as written, you get a median ship in the 400-600Td size range doing J-1. Almost all freight is J-1.

You don't get cargo ships bigger than about 3KTd, and those are on the heaviest-trafficked routes.

Passengers (staterooms) cost Cr2990 per jump, incorporating:
- amortized financed cost of the stateroom over 40 years -10% for class discount
- life support costs
- NOT counting opportunity cost of cargo (for comparison purposes only)
- NOT factoring in the cost of a steward or medic (for a basic freighter up to a Type R, they're fixed costs).

They are more profitable than cargo at mid-passage rates, if occupied.
Revenue for 4 tons cargo: Cr4000. Revenue per ton: Cr1000
Net revenue for a mid-passenger: Cr5010. Revenue per ton: Cr1252

Last edited by Grav_Moped; November 20th, 2020 at 12:38 AM..
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Old November 20th, 2020, 12:53 AM
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Low Berths cost per jump per ton (2 berths):
- Cr220 for amortized financed cost w/class discount
- Cr200 for consumables

Revenue per ton per jump: Cr2000 (2 fares)
Net revenue per ton per jump: Cr1580

More profitable than cargo and mid passengers.

Last edited by Grav_Moped; November 20th, 2020 at 12:56 AM.. Reason: I can't math tonight. Fixed. Apparently can't spelling either.
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  #4  
Old November 20th, 2020, 12:56 AM
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given the established baseline (Cr1000/ton)...
a stateroom is 250K over 40 years of payments, so 1/240 is Cr1041.67/mo, plus the loss of 4Td potential Cr4000, plus annual maintenance of Cr250. It charges Cr8000...
and has an op cost of Cr2000 (CT1E, empty or full, CT2E only when full). Thats Cr3291.67 in costs, and 4000 is the value as cargo space. Sums up to Cr7291.67

In Mid Passage mode for Cr8000 (and small ships need no stewards for mids), that's Cr708.33 more coming than the value as cargo space if you can keep it full.



Adding a steward adds 1/8 × Cr3000 for the steward, and 1/8 the steward's cost off 7291.67. That's an unpleasantly high number: Cost per HP SR is +1286.46 if, and only if, you have 8 SR.

But it allows adding HP at +Cr2000 each.

If you're on a route with steady passenger rolls for highs, it's quite workable to have staterooms. No more than 8, but if so...
Rounding up to next Cr0.01
Now, adding HP in less than 8... Cr7291.67 MP base cost
0 HP: +0000.00 for a cost per MP of Cr7291.67, clears Cr708.33
8 HP: +1286.46 for a cost per HP of Cr8578.13, clears Cr1421.87
7 HP: +1470.23 for a cost per HP of Cr8761.91, clears Cr1238.09
6 HP: +1715.28 for a cost per HP of Cr9006.95, clears Cr993.05
5 HP: +2058.34 for a cost per HP of Cr9350.01, clears Cr649.99
4 HP: +2572.92 for a cost per HP of Cr9864.59, clears Cr135.41
3 HP: +3430.56 for a cost per HP of Cr10722.23, in the hole Cr722.23
2 HP: +5145.84 for a cost per HP of Cr12437.51, in the hole Cr2437.51
1 HP: +10,291.67 for a cost per HP of Cr17583.34, in the hole Cr7583.34

As long as you can keep 4 HP full... High Passages are good money along J1 mains... but they're not as good as MP unless you have 6 or more filled of the 8 for the steward.

Semi-canon
T20 THB adds two additional passage levels, for use outside the 3I, or as a variant in the 3I.
Mid Passage Doubles at Cr6500 per person, High Passage Doubles at Cr8000. This requires doubling the LS cost for the SR..

TNE adds Steerage - passengers in cargo space or up to 4 per SR, at a lower price; ISTR Cr3000 each, but I'm not looking it up.

Note High Guard designs and T20 designs have some other issues.
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  #5  
Old November 20th, 2020, 01:02 AM
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Oh, and since I did the math years ago...

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Dis...ad.php?t=33584
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Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
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Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
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SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
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IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu± dt± f+ fs++ ge± ih- inf± j± jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
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  #6  
Old November 20th, 2020, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
given the established baseline (Cr1000/ton)...
Spoiler:

a stateroom is 250K over 40 years of payments, so 1/240 is Cr1041.67/mo, plus the loss of 4Td potential Cr4000, plus annual maintenance of Cr250. It charges Cr8000...
and has an op cost of Cr2000 (CT1E, empty or full, CT2E only when full). Thats Cr3291.67 in costs, and 4000 is the value as cargo space. Sums up to Cr7291.67

In Mid Passage mode for Cr8000 (and small ships need no stewards for mids), that's Cr708.33 more coming than the value as cargo space if you can keep it full.



Adding a steward adds 1/8 × Cr3000 for the steward, and 1/8 the steward's cost off 7291.67. That's an unpleasantly high number: Cost per HP SR is +1286.46 if, and only if, you have 8 SR.

But it allows adding HP at +Cr2000 each.

If you're on a route with steady passenger rolls for highs, it's quite workable to have staterooms. No more than 8, but if so...
Rounding up to next Cr0.01
Now, adding HP in less than 8... Cr7291.67 MP base cost
0 HP: +0000.00 for a cost per MP of Cr7291.67, clears Cr708.33
8 HP: +1286.46 for a cost per HP of Cr8578.13, clears Cr1421.87
7 HP: +1470.23 for a cost per HP of Cr8761.91, clears Cr1238.09
6 HP: +1715.28 for a cost per HP of Cr9006.95, clears Cr993.05
5 HP: +2058.34 for a cost per HP of Cr9350.01, clears Cr649.99
4 HP: +2572.92 for a cost per HP of Cr9864.59, clears Cr135.41
3 HP: +3430.56 for a cost per HP of Cr10722.23, in the hole Cr722.23
2 HP: +5145.84 for a cost per HP of Cr12437.51, in the hole Cr2437.51
1 HP: +10,291.67 for a cost per HP of Cr17583.34, in the hole Cr7583.34


As long as you can keep 4 HP full... High Passages are good money along J1 mains... but they're not as good as MP unless you have 6 or more filled of the 8 for the steward.

Semi-canon
T20 THB adds two additional passage levels, for use outside the 3I, or as a variant in the 3I.
Mid Passage Doubles at Cr6500 per person, High Passage Doubles at Cr8000. This requires doubling the LS cost for the SR..

TNE adds Steerage - passengers in cargo space or up to 4 per SR, at a lower price; ISTR Cr3000 each, but I'm not looking it up.

Note High Guard designs and T20 designs have some other issues.
Hadn't run the numbers on high passage yet, myself.
Looks like we're pretty much in agreement for the rest, give or take a credit or two.

IMTU, High Passengers wouldn't book double-occupancy, though Mids could and probably would. Double-occupancy doubles LS costs per SR, Steerage would quadruple it (and would require purpose-built SRs or the equivalent; regular SRs would be impractical at quad occupancy and wouldn't have the LS capacity in any case).

Steerage in cargo space would require some kind of modular 0-G porta-potty, an air scrubber, folding bunk-bed cots, and a case of MREs. There are various pressurized and non-pressurized shelters in LBB3 that could be used, or the small craft cabin from LBB2 if you wanted to.

Last edited by Grav_Moped; November 20th, 2020 at 01:31 AM..
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  #7  
Old November 20th, 2020, 01:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
Oh, and since I did the math years ago...

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Dis...ad.php?t=33584
Thanks! I knew I'd seen it before, but my search-fu was weak.
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Old November 20th, 2020, 02:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proneutron View Post
I mean based on Cannon rules. On a cost accounting basis I see cargo space and maybe Low berths.
Passenger staterooms adds more rolls for revenue, so adds more profit!

Passengers don't add much more revenue per ton, but decreases the chance of going empty. That time that the cargo rolls turns up snake-eyes, passengers adds more independent rolls that are unlikely to also be snake-eyes.

Out in the boonies, where Free Traders roam, you don't get many passengers, so you probably don't want all that many staterooms. Perhaps 4-5 staterooms including a steward?

Yes, that is bad usage of the steward, but the steward gets you another roll for passengers, ensuring that it is much less likely that the staterooms are unoccupied. An unoccupied stateroom is more expensive than a steward...


Also note that you don't get much Incidental freight lots, so freight generally comes in 5 Dt lots. The last few tons of cargo will rarely be filled.
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Old November 20th, 2020, 02:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grav_Moped View Post
Thanks! I knew I'd seen it before, but my search-fu was weak.
Remember - you can nominate posts for the reference section (we copy them in, not move them in). It's one of the allowed uses of the Report Post feature.
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Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
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Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
Knight of Deneb (REFT 2239)
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SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
MCG - Battle of Boughene
TAS: William Hostman (CORR 2506)
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IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu± dt± f+ fs++ ge± ih- inf± j± jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
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Old November 20th, 2020, 02:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
Passenger staterooms adds more rolls for revenue, so adds more profit!

Passengers don't add much more revenue per ton, but decreases the chance of going empty. That time that the cargo rolls turns up snake-eyes, passengers adds more independent rolls that are unlikely to also be snake-eyes.

Out in the boonies, where Free Traders roam, you don't get many passengers, so you probably don't want all that many staterooms. Perhaps 4-5 staterooms including a steward?

Yes, that is bad usage of the steward, but the steward gets you another roll for passengers, ensuring that it is much less likely that the staterooms are unoccupied. An unoccupied stateroom is more expensive than a steward...


Also note that you don't get much Incidental freight lots, so freight generally comes in 5 Dt lots. The last few tons of cargo will rarely be filled.
You do NOT want a steward for 4 passenger berths. You'll lose money that way. Unless you're where you can rely upon HP, ditch the steward for an extra mid.
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Archduke of Sylea (CORE 2118)
Duke of the Third Imperium (SPIN 0534)
Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
Viscount of Adabicci (SPIN 1824)
Marquis of the Solomani Rim (SOLO 0606)
Marquis of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2410)
Baron of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2231)
Knight of the Iridium Throne (CORE 1434)
Sir William Hostman (OLDE 0512)
Sir William Hostman (DAGU 0622)
Knight of Deneb (REFT 2239)
Knight of Deneb (Spin 2532)
SEH w/Diamonds for Extreme Heroism - Battle of Boughene
MCG - Battle of Boughene
TAS: William Hostman (CORR 2506)
TAS: Bearer (DAIB 1326)
IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
OTU: 95% 3i an+ au+ br- cpu± dt± f+ fs++ ge± ih- inf± j± jf+ jm+ jt+ ls- n= nc+ pi+ pp-- tp+ tr+ tv- vi-- xb+-
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