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Old December 5th, 2018, 08:16 PM
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Default Some D&D Ideas

While thinking about the Social Standing characteristic in Traveller, I started thinking about the Charisma characteristic in D&D. Specifically, as it relates to the Cleric and Druid classes. For a holy man, I was thinking that Charisma is not so much a factor as Holiness would be. A Cleric's or Druid's deity would be much more interested in how devout a follower and worshipper he or she was than how they look. Apollo and Aphrodite might be somewhat of exceptions to that

Basically, the Charisma score would become a Holiness score for Clerics and Druid, with some form of corresponding benefit, be it more spells, or a greater chance of spell success, or a positive modifier to a resistance roll on spells cast by another cleric or an evil cleric.

I also have been poking around with how does one handle a multiple pantheon world, mainly how do you handle ocean and sea divinities to start with. You do not mess with Poseidon in the Mediterranean, and Manannan Mac Lir is really bad news around Ireland and the North Sea. Ahto quietly runs the Baltic, and assert his interest in the North Sea and the Scandinavian coasts, along with Njord. Ahto also is interested in that great body of fresh water to the west of Europe. Oceanus stays mainly in the Pacific as the largest ocean, while Aegir dominates the North Atlantic. Pantheons without a specific ocean or sea deity sort of have problems when their worshippers venture onto the Great Waters. Not even Oceanus is willing to mess with Aegir when it comes to the North Atlantic. Poseidon has a bit of influence near the Pillars of Hercules in the Atlantic, but does not venture further out.
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Old December 6th, 2018, 05:48 AM
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bear in mind, "charisma" isn't just good looks, but characters, force of personality, ability at speaking and ,well his charisma in the regular sense of the word. A high charisma character is, quite simply, Charismatic. when he talks, people listen.


clerics and druids primary stat for spellcasting is Wisdom, with charisma playing a secondary role, as its a high wisdom (ie a deeper understanding of your god and his mysteries) that grants extra spells. Been a while since I played DnD, but im pretty sure the only major thing that clerics do that needs charisma is Turn Undead, in which the characters force of personality makes sense as a primary stat (what with him brandishing his gods holy symbol and screaming "BEGONE, FOUL BEING FROM BEYOND!" at the undead).



on a multi-pantheon world, you could have areas of influence, like maybe tie gods ability to interact with the world to a certain range form their churches and the blessed magic shrines within them, or have it be some form of demarcation agreement between the gods (which could lead to the Devine equivalent of boundary disputes between two gods if a ship sinks right on the line), or go down the route that all the "different" gods of the sea are but aspects of a single, almost incomprehensible god that are worshipped as separate gods by different cultures because the "true" god is so alien in outlook and nature humans cannot really understand it.
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Old December 6th, 2018, 08:33 PM
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For druids, animal magnetism.
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Old December 6th, 2018, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xerxeskingofking View Post
bear in mind, "charisma" isn't just good looks, but characters, force of personality, ability at speaking and ,well his charisma in the regular sense of the word. A high charisma character is, quite simply, Charismatic. when he talks, people listen.
I understand about people listening, but I am not sure how much Charisma affects a Cleric's or Druid's god.

Quote:
clerics and druids primary stat for spellcasting is Wisdom, with charisma playing a secondary role, as its a high wisdom (ie a deeper understanding of your god and his mysteries) that grants extra spells. Been a while since I played DnD, but im pretty sure the only major thing that clerics do that needs charisma is Turn Undead, in which the characters force of personality makes sense as a primary stat (what with him brandishing his gods holy symbol and screaming "BEGONE, FOUL BEING FROM BEYOND!" at the undead).
The older versions of D&D that I am using do not have any bonuses for Clerics with high Charisma, while high Wisdom only gets extra spells for use, along with the ability to learn higher level spells.

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on a multi-pantheon world, you could have areas of influence, like maybe tie gods ability to interact with the world to a certain range form their churches and the blessed magic shrines within them, or have it be some form of demarcation agreement between the gods (which could lead to the Devine equivalent of boundary disputes between two gods if a ship sinks right on the line), or go down the route that all the "different" gods of the sea are but aspects of a single, almost incomprehensible god that are worshipped as separate gods by different cultures because the "true" god is so alien in outlook and nature humans cannot really understand it.
I lean towards your first idea, at least for those deities based on land or in the air. They are potent where their worshippers are, but the farther away they get, the less effective they are, and the more they will defer to another deity. Zeus is potent in Greece and Rome (called Jupiter in Rome(, but in northern Europe and Finland, he is not a factor.

The seas and oceans pose a different question, as they all inter-relate. Again, I think that spheres of influence would work, or where are the seamen worshipping you sailing.

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Originally Posted by Condottiere View Post
For druids, animal magnetism.
Nice idea.
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Old December 7th, 2018, 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
I understand about people listening, but I am not sure how much Charisma affects a Cleric's or Druid's god.

Charisma has nothing to do with the Clerics relation to his/her/whatevers god. It has EVERYTHING to do with bringing new people into the faith. But as player clerics are usually never the type to preach, they only have to worry about their Wisdom (their understanding of the deeper blah, blah blah) and CHarisma is pretty much a dump stat, as they are more agents of their god than one who brings in new worshipers.

That's how it was explained to me and my 2CrImps anyways.
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Old December 7th, 2018, 12:00 PM
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Remember, at least in AD&D1E (the one I played), clerics don't represent the priest of your parrochial church:

Quote:
Page 20 of PH, under Cleric:

This class of character bears a certain resemblance to religious orders of knighthood of medival times
For those knights, holiness was not always an important thing, but charisma, both as personality force and as leadership capacity, were.
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Old December 7th, 2018, 06:20 PM
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Characteristics tend to neatly complement each other.

Religious institutions can have their intellectuals and evangelicals, not necessarily the same people. They can also have their enforcers.

They certainly tend to have bureaucrats and administrators.
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Old December 7th, 2018, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
Remember, at least in AD&D1E (the one I played), clerics don't represent the priest of your parrochial church:

Quote:
Page 20 of PH, under Cleric:

This class of character bears a certain resemblance to religious orders of knighthood of medival times
For those knights, holiness was not always an important thing, but charisma, both as personality force and as leadership capacity, were.
You are correct, McPerth. I just checked my AD&D Players Handbook and that is in there. I did play that way when I played a cleric, although I also tried to remember that I could cast spells too. Generally, I was the medic of the party, however, and always the one with the healing potions.

I will need to give my ideas some more thought. The problem with the Blue Book version of the basic rules is that the cleric is a pretty weak character to start with. I have had my Blue Book Basic edition since 1977. I do have most of the AD&D books and the Little Tan Books too. However, the Blue Book edition still has HOBBITS and BALROGS to go with my Greyhawk supplement. I was looking to run a game with genuine Hobbits rather than the halflings.
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Old December 8th, 2018, 03:43 PM
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I've always assumed that clerics need to be no more than one alignment step from their deity. I've never bought into the "generic cleric" - all clerics and priests are clerics and priests of something. Wisdom was combined general knowledge and faith. (at least until 3E made it into perception). Charisma was important only for local priests; the wandering priss it's nice to have but not essential.

That something need not be a deity per se - it might be a principle, it might be an element or natural force. Or even a portion of a pantheon - as in, the Aesir or the Giants.

Then again, I started as a player in the GDQ sequence under AD&D 1E (summer '81), and we very quickly added Unearthed Arcana...
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Old December 8th, 2018, 06:15 PM
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A L-L-L-L-Long time ago, I started working up a pantheon for the World of Greyhawk Gazetteer and boxed set, using the pantheons in the original Deities and Demigods book, along with the Gods, Demigods, and Heroes supplement. The idea was that every cleric would have to chose a deity as his or her god or goddess, and of the same alignment. The fudge area was Neutral alignment, where a cleric could be neutral in part, soy neutral good, lawful neutral (by the book and only by the book), chaotic neutral (anything goes that is not really nasty), and so on. I am not sure where that set of note cards is now.

I do like the Finnish Pantheon quite a lot, which is why there is a Kalevala Sub-sector in my new sector. If nothing else, I think that will educate some of the readers into a wider range of literature. The fact that Harold Shea visited the Land of Kalevala did not hurt either. If a group of player-characters land on a planet with the capital named Helsingfors, hopefully they will figure out where they might be. I know that the name "Helsingfors" is Swedish, but it was the capital of Finland for quite a while. I will likely have a "Helsinki" as well. I do need to think about a town named "Molotov Cocktail" which has a large distillery.

One exception to the alignment rule was Mannanan Mac Lir, the Celtic sea god. Somehow, a Chaotic Neutral cleric onboard a ship fighting a storm did not compute very well, so those clerics could range a bit more widely in alignment without jeopardy, as long as they followed the sea.
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