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In My 2300 Universe Discussion of non-canon ideas for use in your 2300 Universe

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  #11  
Old March 12th, 2008, 09:03 AM
mbrinkhues mbrinkhues is offline
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Originally Posted by epicenter00 View Post
I don't think that's quite necessary - I think Germany would seize the initiative after a crushing French defeat in the Far East. The situation I think would be quite similar to the opening moves of WW2. The French actually had some better equipment than the Germans during that period, however, superior German tactics and logistics neutralized such superior equipment handily. Kicking a guy while he's down might not be sporting, but it's good way to win a fight. I think a similar situation would occur in a hastened War of German Reunification - as the Reunification War was very much an Earthside contest. It wasn't fought on both Earth and in space.
Actually the Germans did use some space action, mostly raider tactics with their nuke-powered Frigates and Cruisers. Between a Sachsens/Hamburgs armor and energy weapons they can kill a lot of Merchants and their Aconit escorts quickly. StarCruiser has some nice (ugly) scenarios

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* The Bavarians would probably be much less reluctant to side with the Hannover camp given how their French benefactors just got their rear ends handed to them in Asia.
And they would have likely suffered more losses with the war turning ugly than they had in the official timeline. OTOH the MIGHT have gotten Bavaria combat ready.

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* The German states would have probably watched the CAW very closely (in fact the entire world probably would have) - the CAW would very much have been the an earthshaking war - as far as I can tell in the 2300 history, it was fought both on Earth and in space with the French making strikes in the Chinese Arm and the Manchus going so far as to make a base in the French Arm to raid the French - it's serious business and probably a lot more bitter than the sanitized text in the rulebooks would suggest. After the French defeat, I think the Germans would have gone "half-cocked" as they'd have seen the French war machine humbled and demoralized and felt confident they could win.

* Given the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" attitude (as evident in Grosshiddenhafen), even if the Sternmarine wasn't up to snuff yet, the Manchus could have probably made "guarantees" or having an "understanding" for various colony worlds should the French start acting up - the Manchus were able to supply Elysia in canon 2300 history and that's with the Manchus losing. With the Manchus winning, Tunghus and whatever classes of ships that didn't appear in the various sourcebooks could have kept French navy at bay.
At least the French Navy would be forced to keep more of their heavies in reserve than they did in 2291. Otherwise the Manchus might get the idea to "accidently" coordinate some operations with the DSKM. This in turn might change an outcome or two. One of the DSKM vs. France scenarios that in SC is a "loss" for the DSKM would change if there is one less Suffren availabel. (IIRC it's 2 Hamburgs vs. 2 Suffrens in SC, the Germans loosing one ship)

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Also, I've always thought that 2300 would be more interesting with a Manchu victory in the CAW, personally. It'd break the Eurocentricism of 2300's history quite nicely (American and Canada being "European" powers in case).
Some more questions come up:

+ With a weaker France will the Germans manage to get the two "rebellious" Bavarian colonies under control?

+ If Bavaria joins more willingly, will the Germans actually have a Battleship availabel (IIRC the ship was operational)

+ Will France be able/willing to come to Bavarias help? The French have played the "no un-winnabel wars sil vous play" game a lot in the 2300AD timeline

+ Will Germany re-absorb the left-Rhine parts? Or will Moers keep guzzling wine instead of drinking proper beer?
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  #12  
Old March 12th, 2008, 09:18 AM
dan891 dan891 is offline
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Going by the Steve Alexander spreadsheet including the French Union territories the French have over 400M citizens, Germany including Bavaria has 105M. Given France has just come out of the closest thing to WWIV its mechanisms for mobilising that will be well practiced. (The French after all were always pretty good at getting military capability out of its colonies).

Remember though that the French are fighting an expeditionary war in the CAR - the largest contingents will probably be the Russians and the CAR loyalists. French military production will be at massive levels. Sure they'll have some chewed up units and some knackered kit but they'll have a lot that isn't and the means to replace that which is. War with Germany is no longer an expeditionary war, but one close to home.

Germany goes to war with France in 2292 because France refuses to countenance the incorporation of Bavaria into the new state. Germany fights to ensure the survival of the state. In 2287 Hannover hasn't done the ground work to bring Bavaria in - Bavaria just having defeated as well probably isn't in the mood for a shotgun wedding.

So if Germany goes in 2287 it does so to kick France while she is down without much legitimate justification and loses the moral high ground it has in 2292. So it is more likely to bring in third parties against it.

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Originally Posted by mbrinkhues View Post
Population figures between Earth-based French and German citizens don't differ that much so (assuming conscript armies) the manpower should be similar. And while the French Army might have recent combat experience, tey also have just suffered a lost war. And this normally includes lot of destroyed equipment and personal losses.

Another question is what some of the 2nd and 3rd tier nations with a grudge would do if the Germans really decide to go after France in 2287. I.e Italy has been slighted by France early in the Stutterwarp-Era and has no colonies because of that. Will they use the weakness to get revenge on France or will they repeat the Twilight war and go after Bavaria?

And if we Krauts really for France in 2287 this will happen in the middle of the military coup. Will this affect the French Army? What will some of the colonies do?
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Old March 12th, 2008, 09:32 AM
rfmcdpei rfmcdpei is offline
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Population figures between Earth-based French and German citizens don't differ that much so (assuming conscript armies) the manpower should be similar.
For European France and Germany, yes, but there's also African France.

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Another question is what some of the 2nd and 3rd tier nations with a grudge would do if the Germans really decide to go after France in 2287. I.e Italy has been slighted by France early in the Stutterwarp-Era and has no colonies because of that. Will they use the weakness to get revenge on France or will they repeat the Twilight war and go after Bavaria?
Why would they necessarily have a stake in the outcome of a Franco-German conflict that doesn't seem particularly relevant? Italy doesn't have any territorial claims against France that I know of, and seems to have fairly decent relations besides.

Conversely, what about other European states moving against Germany. Poland and Czechoslovakia are the most obvious possibilities on this front.

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And if we Krauts really for France in 2287 this will happen in the middle of the military coup. Will this affect the French Army? What will some of the colonies do?
Well, we could very well get something like a major land war on the surface of Tirane. Who knows how that will end up.

In a situation of imminent threat, I'd think that the civilian government would hand the military that much control over policy.
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  #14  
Old March 12th, 2008, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by dan891 View Post
Remember though that the French are fighting an expeditionary war in the CAR - the largest contingents will probably be the Russians and the CAR loyalists. French military production will be at massive levels. Sure they'll have some chewed up units and some knackered kit but they'll have a lot that isn't and the means to replace that which is. War with Germany is no longer an expeditionary war, but one close to home.
I would imagine by 2300, the age of the conscript army would be over.

Military equipment would require increasingly intelligent and well-trained troops to operate it. Such troops are expensive to train and the pool for them isn't as large as with conscript grunts. These guys and gals are the ones fighting in the CAR and taking losses - the tip of the French spear is blunted or even broken off by the end of the CAW. The CAR wasn't a "casual" war - the French committed its track-laying tanks to it, which given the emphasis on the difficulty and cost of transporting them suggests only really serious "wars" have them used (as opposed to "conflicts", "police actions", and so on).

These kinds of troops tell a lot more over reservists, militia, or conscripts. Even a peacetime army of the German states would immense advantages over such conscripts. I recall a comment in the Aurore Sourcebook I think it was talking about how the French militia units did so poorly when finally pressed into combat during the War of German Reunification that France made serious strides to improve them.

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Originally Posted by dan891 View Post
Germany goes to war with France in 2292 because France refuses to countenance the incorporation of Bavaria into the new state. Germany fights to ensure the survival of the state. In 2287 Hannover hasn't done the ground work to bring Bavaria in - Bavaria just having defeated as well probably isn't in the mood for a shotgun wedding.

So if Germany goes in 2287 it does so to kick France while she is down without much legitimate justification and loses the moral high ground it has in 2292. So it is more likely to bring in third parties against it.
Movements like this don't appear overnight. I would imagine that while Hannover is probably the hotbed for reunification sentiment, it's probably been growing in the German successors for at least a decade or two before Hannover gives the call to unite.

Bavaria would have probably taken losses in the CAW which would make Bavaria un-predisposed open or outright cooperation with the Manchus, you know, widows and orphans and all that, but "understandings" handled delicately could probably be easily fly. However, seeing that your alliance partner (France) just failed spectacularly in a war is usually the best time to make people reconsider a referendum. Hannoverian citizens call a vote as do the citizens of other German successors. The Bavarian government either does the same or perhaps gets replaced in a massive vote of No Confidence. The Germans would see it as the perfect time - France weakened internationally and militarily by a costly failed war, the Germans could reunite and hope to present France with a fait accompli and thus doesn't lose the moral high ground.

On the other hand, given a French defeat and a German reunification so closely after the war, another question arises: What if France doesn't fight? What if German reunification happens peacefully? Would the Bavarian colonies in space declare independence then? War tends to sour opinions and sully morality, but if France doesn't fight (and right after a humiliating defeat in Asia, they might not), it might change the situation in 2300 even further.
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  #15  
Old March 12th, 2008, 05:57 PM
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On the other hand, given a French defeat and a German reunification so closely after the war, another question arises: What if France doesn't fight? What if German reunification happens peacefully? Would the Bavarian colonies in space declare independence then? War tends to sour opinions and sully morality, but if France doesn't fight (and right after a humiliating defeat in Asia, they might not), it might change the situation in 2300 even further.
The question of the emerging non-German identities of many of the colonies would still exist. Heidelsheimat would still feel itself Bavarian in the case of German reunification, for instance, while the Neubayern system and the French Arm colonies would still feel themselves to be German broadly speaking.

If German reunification is achieved peacefully, instead of as a consequence of a fairly major Terran and interstellar war, two issues come to mind.

1. What will happen to Adlerhorst? We don't know enough about events there, but it's reasonable to assume that the Bavarian/German split among the German colonists was aggravated greatly by the ongoing Franco-German war. If a peaceful German reunification manages to abort the Adlerhorst crisis, then not only will the international peacekeeping force not be sent but one running sore in Franco-German relations will be avoided altogether.

2. What will happen to Garten? Without the spectre of a militarized Germany taking over and the possibility of a broader Franco-German war on Tirane, Garteners might well decide against independence. The big question is whether Garten, by virtue of its population (twice that of Terran Germany!), can negotiate some sort of constitutional deal, like admission to Germany as a fully-fledger state in whole or in parts. Neubayern with a population similar to that of Terran Germany didn't manage that, but might Garten's greater size push Germany down a different path.

If all this is the case, with Garten and perhaps Neubayern firmly included in Germany and Adlerhorst at peace then you've got a much stronger German interstellar nation.
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Old March 13th, 2008, 07:37 AM
dan891 dan891 is offline
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Actually conscripts can, although currently out of fashion, be very effective. Given the right training, role and equipment of course. Look, for example, at the Isrealis (or even the Aussie in Vietnam where their conscripts were fully as effective as the regulars). Conscripts don't make great multi-role expeditionary forces for the most part, but give them a role to play in an easily defined job with obvious aim (say, defend the homeland) and they'll do plenty well.

Modern equipment isn't such a big deal to operate - indeed much of it is pretty simple for a resonably well educated individual. Fieldcraft and tactics are harder but the basics can be tought pretty quickly. With a well structured military set up to deliver this training it's no big deal.

Certainly the French regulars TdM, Legion, TAP etc will have taken heavy casualties - but the main line Metro army (inferred to still have restrictions on deployments hence probably still conscript) will bare most of the burden. To keep this in the field for such a war would require at least 50% back at home for BCRs and replacements if not 66% (the usual proportion).

I think the VG S/B overrates the difficulties in the use of heavy tracked tanks on Earth - if the Canadians can fly a squadron of Leos into Kandahar in 2007 the French will have no dramas heavy lifting - or even via train - moving heavy tanks into the CAR. That said the CAW is certainly the major event of wars in this era although the CIW might get close to it.

The A S/B comments on the qualities of militia might be a bit of a red herring - poorly performing in the CAW - which I can only guess means on Joi as I don't see any references to Manchurian or any sort of ground combat anywhere else on the French Arm. To a 'creditable' performance in the WoGR - which I guess mean on BCV or perhaps Adlerhorst as again I see no reference to German landings on worlds without existing Franco-German neighbours.

As to a German advantage it depends what you take as what a German State army looks like. Bavaria could be all pro or conscript or a mix - its very small on Earth so might need conscripts to get critical mass while it has colonial volunteer regulars. Westfalen has strong French influences so could also be conscript. Hanover might be all regular but might need conscripts again for size, Brandenburg and Saschen have eastern influences and be all conscript - especially with a relatively xenophobic Poland close to hand. Remember - Germany would have fought the WoGR effectively with 5 armies, not one.


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Originally Posted by epicenter00 View Post
I would imagine by 2300, the age of the conscript army would be over.

Military equipment would require increasingly intelligent and well-trained troops to operate it. Such troops are expensive to train and the pool for them isn't as large as with conscript grunts. These guys and gals are the ones fighting in the CAR and taking losses - the tip of the French spear is blunted or even broken off by the end of the CAW. The CAR wasn't a "casual" war - the French committed its track-laying tanks to it, which given the emphasis on the difficulty and cost of transporting them suggests only really serious "wars" have them used (as opposed to "conflicts", "police actions", and so on).

These kinds of troops tell a lot more over reservists, militia, or conscripts. Even a peacetime army of the German states would immense advantages over such conscripts. I recall a comment in the Aurore Sourcebook I think it was talking about how the French militia units did so poorly when finally pressed into combat during the War of German Reunification that France made serious strides to improve them.
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Old March 13th, 2008, 10:24 AM
mbrinkhues mbrinkhues is offline
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Oh and don't forget another classic example of an effective conscript army: The German Wehrmacht in WWII and the Prussian and German armies of the 19th and early 20th century. A strong core of long-serving NCO's and Officers surrounded by a shell of well-trained and equiped concripts worked just fine.

Properly motivated and led conscripts can do their duties as good as any "standing" force and have done so throughout history. The concept only breaks down when you get the idea that your junior NCOs can be "one week course" conscripts themselfs and officers can be made by a 90 days course.
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Old March 13th, 2008, 12:41 PM
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+ With a weaker France will the Germans manage to get the two "rebellious" Bavarian colonies under control?
On account of its small size, Heidelsheimat might be quite possible. The only thing that could prevent it might be Manchurian hostility to seeing a new Germany extend its reach so far into its arm.

Garten? If there is a War of German Reunification that strikes me as very unlikely. Bavarian Tirane already had its own space force and presumably its own military, seems to have had a broad consensus in favour of independence, and should be capable of defending itself against an attempt at conquest by Germany. The only thing that could change that might be an attempt at orbital bombardment. That could end very badly for Germany--would a risk at going to war with all of Tirane and Tirane's colonizing powers really be worth it?

If there is a premature War of German Reunification, say in 2287, especially if there is an outright conquest of Germany, then the legitimacy of German rule over Bavaria's colonies would be challenged to an even greater extent. The French wouldn't have any disincentives to encourage some of the Bavarian colonies to break free. "Welcome, Neubayern, to the community of independent nations! Would you like some matériel with that recognition?"

[QUOTE]+ Will France be able/willing to come to Bavarias help? The French have played the "no un-winnabel wars sil vous play" game a lot in the 2300AD timeline[QUOTE]

But would this war be unwinnable?

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+ Will Germany re-absorb the left-Rhine parts? Or will Moers keep guzzling wine instead of drinking proper beer?
The départements rhénans are long lost to Germany. If, after one century, three-quarters of Alsace's population speaks only French, then after a world war that kills most of the native population, a subsequent repopulation by Francophones, and three centuries the Rhineland is definitely French. The impression I've gotten of canonical German reunification is that it was a decidedly constitutional process uninterested in empire for its own sake. That said, a Germany that acquired a Francophone minority through force might have interesting dynamics.
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Old March 13th, 2008, 01:04 PM
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...That said, a Germany that acquired a Francophone minority through force might have interesting dynamics.
Warning! Talk to the British Empire/Ottawa before attempting this experiment.
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Old March 13th, 2008, 05:28 PM
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Warning! Talk to the British Empire/Ottawa before attempting this experiment.
[I]Vive la Rhénanie ... Vive la Rhénanie[I] libre!
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