Traveller Store CotI Features New Posts Mark Forums Read Register


Go Back TravellerRPG.com > Citizens of the Imperium > 2300/2320AD > In My 2300 Universe

In My 2300 Universe Discussion of non-canon ideas for use in your 2300 Universe

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old August 16th, 2008, 08:13 AM
Mithras's Avatar
Mithras Mithras is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 1,002
Gallery : 2
Mithras Citizen
Default French Empire replaced by British Empire

I wonder what your thoughts might be on this: instead of FRance weathering the Collapse due to its global 'dependancies' I wonder what the future would look like in 2300AD if it had been the British Commonwealth that had weathered the war and subsequent Collapse. To me it seems a bit more likely, plus I'm a Brit (!) and I always fancied the RAF in space ...

Can anyone imagine a 'Commonwealth' rather than a French Empire?
__________________
Paul Elliott
ORBITAL: The Solar System Setting for Traveller, a hard setting full of TL 9 technology, rockets, landers, Orion capsules and colonies on Mercury, Mars and the moons of Jupiter and Saturn.

http://zozer.weebly.com/orbital.html
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old August 17th, 2008, 07:10 AM
Waldemar Waldemar is offline
Citizen: SOC-10
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 71
Gallery : 0
Waldemar Citizen
Default

Well, sure

A British Commonwealth forming the hegemony is as good as the Third French Empire that was designed by GDW in order to give the 24th century a different look than the Anglo-Saxon dominated world of the 80's. I suspect that it confused many gamers in the US, and you can note that GDW gradually shifted focus to America and Britain in their published sourcebooks and adventures.

One of the things that made 2300 AD stand out in the 80's was that it made the pretty radical step of imagining a future where non-European nations would be players in world politics. The Soviet Union was declining, but no one could imagine that it would break up (and it took GDW a WWIII to do it ). The notion of Japan Inc had just reached the public. The European Union was at a standstill and was seemingly struggling to find a purpose. Nations in Latin America (Argentina and Brazil), Africa (Azania and UAR) and Asia (Manchuria and Indonesia) being main actors on the world scene was a bit far fetched then.

So having eliminated the US and the USSR in the Twilight War, I suppose it was logical for GDW to look at one of more independent-minded Western nations (since the policies of Charles De Gaulle) with what seemed as an diverging agenda as the foundation of the different world rising from WWIII.

Now, putting France as the cultural, economic and military main power for about two centuries would mean a great deal of differences that did not get fully explored in the previous incarnation of the game. Actually 2320 AD is IMO doing it a bit better.

So replacing France with Britain wouldn't be a mayor loss in the setting, since it is still an unlikely event.

Last edited by Waldemar; August 19th, 2008 at 03:36 AM.. Reason: spelling
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old August 17th, 2008, 01:31 PM
BMonnery BMonnery is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Oxford
Posts: 579
Gallery : 0
BMonnery Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithras View Post
I wonder what your thoughts might be on this: instead of FRance weathering the Collapse due to its global 'dependancies' I wonder what the future would look like in 2300AD if it had been the British Commonwealth that had weathered the war and subsequent Collapse. To me it seems a bit more likely, plus I'm a Brit (!) and I always fancied the RAF in space ...

Can anyone imagine a 'Commonwealth' rather than a French Empire?
Surprisingly, yes ;-)

(Wonders whether you've seen my website).

However, France's position owes more to just surviving the collapse better (indeed the British were quite well off in comparison to most), but using their position to secure access to Oil in the early 21C, then a headstart in the great Tantalum Grab (TM) of the early 22C.

The British were also involved in the great Tantalum Grab, except instead of satelliting Africa etc., they grabbed the tantalum in Antarctica, against opposition from Denmark (SU) and Argentina.

These grabs placed the French and British as major tantalum holders in the mid-late 22C expansions. Japan managed to grab most of Mozambique's tantalum, Bavaria struck a deal with Azania, whilst the US managed to get Spain's tantalum.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old August 18th, 2008, 03:20 AM
epicenter00's Avatar
epicenter00 epicenter00 is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 850
Gallery : 0
epicenter00 Citizen+epicenter00 Citizen+epicenter00 Citizen+
Default

In some ways, I think British Commonwealth in Space would be the worst thing to happen to 2300.

As Waldemar pointed out, the French thing was basically GDW's attempt to make 2300 different without making it too different from the world of today - they could have just gone in deep and made China or Brazil the #1 power on Earth but I think players of the 1980s (especially American players) would have had an even more difficult time adapting. They also were doing Space: 1889 which definitely had a more Anglophone slant to it.

My main beef with the British Empire in space is that ... well, it's already been done in history. It's certainly not far-fetched given 2300's background and you could probably do it without actually doing too much violence to 2300's universe in reality. It'd certainly make a lot of the colony names less dumb as GDW could probably make believable English unlike their embarrassing names they have for French or German colonies. However, I'd become a little too "well-worn groove" for me - a little too comfortable and too familiar, which isn't the way the future really should be in my opinion.
__________________
"... to be truly happy a man has to live absolutely in the present - no thought as what's gone before and no thought of what lies ahead. But a life of meaning, a man is condemned to wallow in the past and obsess about the future."
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old August 18th, 2008, 06:31 AM
Mithras's Avatar
Mithras Mithras is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 1,002
Gallery : 2
Mithras Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMonnery View Post
Surprisingly, yes ;-)

(Wonders whether you've seen my website)
No?? Tell me more!

This is an alternate future, for my own game. And it really isn't the British Empire in space, that would be ... horrible! Its the Commonweath of Nations, which is equal, but in the near future organisede and galvanised by UK to get into space and dominate the global economy by martialling the Commonwealth's transport and resources. It becomes the global government. Yes this is a radical departure from 2300 politics, but not from society and technology.

In space a power is borne, colonies founded and the Commonwealth accepts new members, it then has to get tough and becomes a little more integrated and aggressive. Politically it will turn from the Commonwealth of Nations into the proposed (by fringe supporters) the Commonwealth Union, an EU style poltical union.

Its space navy will be a Canadaian/RAF style body called SPACECOM, and the marines or drop troops of the Commonwealth will be The Regiment, organised into Squadrons and Flights, with African, Indian, Australian and Canadian soldiers as common as British ones...
__________________
Paul Elliott
ORBITAL: The Solar System Setting for Traveller, a hard setting full of TL 9 technology, rockets, landers, Orion capsules and colonies on Mercury, Mars and the moons of Jupiter and Saturn.

http://zozer.weebly.com/orbital.html
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old August 18th, 2008, 07:38 PM
rfmcdpei rfmcdpei is offline
Citizen: SOC-12
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 242
Gallery : 0
rfmcdpei Citizen
Send a message via AIM to rfmcdpei
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by epicenter00 View Post
In some ways, I think British Commonwealth in Space would be the worst thing to happen to 2300.

As Waldemar pointed out, the French thing was basically GDW's attempt to make 2300 different without making it too different from the world of today - they could have just gone in deep and made China or Brazil the #1 power on Earth but I think players of the 1980s (especially American players) would have had an even more difficult time adapting. They also were doing Space: 1889 which definitely had a more Anglophone slant to it.
Agreed. The thing that caught my attention about 2300AD way back in September 1997 was that it was an alternate history where the French were dominant, and for seemingly plausible reasons, what with well-armed relative neutrality in a global nuclear war being a good idea.

Quote:
My main beef with the British Empire in space is that ... well, it's already been done in history. It's certainly not far-fetched given 2300's background and you could probably do it without actually doing too much violence to 2300's universe in reality.
It's going on in 2300. Wellon's a Commonwealth nation, and Alicia (on Beowulf) is becoming the same. Australian and Nigerian interests on the American Arm and Canadian (and KPF) interests on the Chinese Arm can be seen as diversions, or that can be seen as examples of the power of networking to take anyone ... anywhere.

Maybe this is happening after the dust settles in the Second Kafer War, at least on the French Arm. New Cornwall is stable and might annex Lubumbashi on Joi, the British Continent on Beta Canum hasn't fared too badly, and Alicia is easily overshadowing French Beowulf, on the world and in the Queen Alice's Star planetary system. Just as Portuguese-colonized Mozambique joined the Commonwealth in our history, so too might the fragments of the German and French communities in the Arm link up with the Commonwealth.

Last edited by rfmcdpei; August 18th, 2008 at 07:39 PM.. Reason: typo
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old August 19th, 2008, 03:25 AM
Waldemar Waldemar is offline
Citizen: SOC-10
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 71
Gallery : 0
Waldemar Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rfmcdpei View Post
It's going on in 2300. Wellon's a Commonwealth nation, and Alicia (on Beowulf) is becoming the same. Australian and Nigerian interests on the American Arm and Canadian (and KPF) interests on the Chinese Arm can be seen as diversions, or that can be seen as examples of the power of networking to take anyone ... anywhere.

Maybe this is happening after the dust settles in the Second Kafer War, at least on the French Arm. New Cornwall is stable and might annex Lubumbashi on Joi, the British Continent on Beta Canum hasn't fared too badly, and Alicia is easily overshadowing French Beowulf, on the world and in the Queen Alice's Star planetary system. Just as Portuguese-colonized Mozambique joined the Commonwealth in our history, so too might the fragments of the German and French communities in the Arm link up with the Commonwealth.
Agreed, this is a possible development, as the world is described in 2320 AD. The difference is that it is an in world development, based on what happened in the Second Kafer War. These developments could lead to some interesting conflicts that provide the referee with interesting hooks for adventures. You'll have a Commonwealth (sort of) and possibly a good game. I like that.

The main argument was about changing the backstory of the game 2320 AD, with the UK and the other 20th century Commonwealth nations gaining dominance after the Twilight War. Instead of the French Peace we would have Pax Britannica v2.0. It would institute some changes in Earth's geopolitics, adding a bit to the referee's work, especially if you do not assume that the UK acted exactly as France.

While I see this as being possible to do with the setting, and with some merit too, I agree with epicenter00's previous post.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old August 19th, 2008, 06:32 AM
epicenter00's Avatar
epicenter00 epicenter00 is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 850
Gallery : 0
epicenter00 Citizen+epicenter00 Citizen+epicenter00 Citizen+
Default

After all the bashing of the idea, I have to admit I did once have a crazy offshoot idea for 2300 that would be based around a Commonwealth. However, for those who have dreams of British Empire 2.0, I don't think it'd be that popular - it was something I thought of back in like the late 90s when I saw a program about Indians in the UK and the idea had some bones I never fully fleshed it out -

I had this idea that post Twilight War, France being relatively untouched compared to the rest of Europe would continue to run the "European Union" though it'd be more like the French Union. The mission of this Francophone EU would change from "Keep the Russians out, the Germans down, and the Americans here" to "Rebuild Europe, get the Americans out, and Unite." During the war and its short aftermath, I imagined that separatists in Scotland egged on by some Frankenstein reimagining of the "Aulde Alliance" is egged on by France to split off. At the same time, Eire quietly reaches an understanding with the British troops there and takes Northern Ireland. Wales considers splitting off, but in the end decides to stick with England (without Northern Ireland there is no United Kingdom anymore, and without Scotland there is less of a Great Britain anymore - most people refer to the "rump" of Wales + England simply as "Britain" during this period). Eire and Scotland receive a disproportionate share of EU rebuilding funds with the "Scottish Lobby" working to stifle funds to the England. As a result, Eire and Scotland rebuild reasonably quickly and enjoy many decades of prosperity (and enjoying more than few "small laughs" at how their one-time overlords are so poor, though rarely in polite company).

Meanwhile, the British Commonwealth, with the UK knocked out, Canada having more pressing interests closer to home, and so on, finds itself dominated by the once looked down upon Indians. If France could be relatively untouched by the Twilight War, I reasoned that India could have been as well. The Commonwealth nations around the Indian Ocean (South Africa, India, New Zealand though it doesn't really touch the Indian Ocean is counted here and so on) gain ascendancy and become a greatest, wealthiest power bloc in the Commonwealth. The sole exception is Australia, whose parochial dislike of the non-white power bloc keeps them from fully benefitting from the Commonwealth (eventually Australia gets over this, but decides to ally closer with America instead). In turn, Britain finds itself the target of a huge amounts of capital investment as the Commonwealth sees the former mother country as a good way to access EU markets.

While the EU has a headstart in many areas, the vigor of Commonwealth nations makes itself felt after a while - while the EU is exploring space, the Commonwealth corners the biotech market. While the EU colonizes other planets a seemingly unassailable headstart, the Commonwealth shores up its lead on biotech and plows its biotech advantage into recycling - various tailored bacteria that can refine the junk in landfills back into usable refined materials, rare metals in particular. With this move, they singlehandedly pull the rug out of under the EU model of colonization - it's much cheaper to recycle what's on Earth than haul it a dozen lightyears down the Arms.

As colonization and exploration falter as their wealth European backers suddenly face divestment from their backers as colonies are simply no longer seen as good investments. Romantic exploration is great and all, but money is what these people want. Some colonies fail, while many more face economic doldrums. That's when the Commonwealth begins to invest in space - buying up a number of EU exploration companies for cheap (in this version of 2300, it's actually this which causes War of German Reunification as confidence in France and French policy erodes as the jobless rate spikes to 15% in the EU at large, compared to 3% in Britain - with EU workers less able to get to Britain due to the EU's "special regulation" put in place decades earlier which now Britain is reluctant to repeal). This triggers a long dormant sense of British pride - Britons leave England, at first by the tens of thousands, but eventually by the hundreds of thousands for the stars. They're joined by other Commonwealth groups that feel a bit marginalized - like white South Africans (though Azania in this 2300 isn't anywhere near as harsh as in official 2300), Canadians, and so on.

The entire set-up created a world where Anglophones built on the frontiers and were building up their futures there. Indians and black South Africans were the corporate heads and investors who loathed to leave Earth and the red soils of South Africa or the holy Ganges but were more than willing to pay money to help the colonists out. It would have created a universe where my players could see familiar white faces out on the Frontiers while a visit to Earth would be suitably "exotic." As two of my players were Scots, I paid special attention to Scotland - Scotland was facing a stormy political crisis - with circumstances leading to worse unemployment, many Scots have taken advantage of a shared language (efforts to stamp out English never really took hold) to go work and join in colonization. Some have gone so far as to suggest taking Britain up on their century old offer to join in a recast "Kingdom of Equals" - the United Kingdom of England, Ireland, Scotland, and Wales.
__________________
"... to be truly happy a man has to live absolutely in the present - no thought as what's gone before and no thought of what lies ahead. But a life of meaning, a man is condemned to wallow in the past and obsess about the future."
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old August 19th, 2008, 09:58 AM
BMonnery BMonnery is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Oxford
Posts: 579
Gallery : 0
BMonnery Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithras View Post
No?? Tell me more!

This is an alternate future, for my own game. And it really isn't the British Empire in space, that would be ... horrible! Its the Commonweath of Nations, which is equal, but in the near future organisede and galvanised by UK to get into space and dominate the global economy by martialling the Commonwealth's transport and resources. It becomes the global government. Yes this is a radical departure from 2300 politics, but not from society and technology.

In space a power is borne, colonies founded and the Commonwealth accepts new members, it then has to get tough and becomes a little more integrated and aggressive. Politically it will turn from the Commonwealth of Nations into the proposed (by fringe supporters) the Commonwealth Union, an EU style poltical union.

Its space navy will be a Canadaian/RAF style body called SPACECOM, and the marines or drop troops of the Commonwealth will be The Regiment, organised into Squadrons and Flights, with African, Indian, Australian and Canadian soldiers as common as British ones...
Rather than my own meager offerings, have a look at www.etranger.org.uk
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old August 19th, 2008, 12:37 PM
Border Reiver's Avatar
Border Reiver Border Reiver is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Scottish Borders
Posts: 2,111
Gallery : 7
Visit Border Reiver's Blog
Border Reiver Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by epicenter00 View Post
After all the bashing of the idea, I have to admit I did once have a crazy offshoot idea for 2300 that would be based around a Commonwealth. However, for those who have dreams of British Empire 2.0, I don't think it'd be that popular - it was something I thought of back in like the late 90s when I saw a program about Indians in the UK and the idea had some bones I never fully fleshed it out -

<SNIP>
I thinks that is a very good write up. My only canon issue is that I'm pretty sure that India and Pakistan's own nuclear exchange was fairly devastating in its own right. Even the after effect would be worse with massive population displacement and diseases rampant in a pair of nations where the medical infrastructure was shaky at best.

Still some very good ideas which I'm going to swipe for my own pet pet project.
__________________
safe oot & safe in
dae richt & feare nocht

"I have come to believe there is nothing in the lives of human beings more terrifying than war and nothing more important than for those of us who have experienced it to share its awful truth."- Ron Kovic
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The French Empire Marchand 2300AD & 2320 38 June 2nd, 2008 05:07 PM
Ripping off the Victorian British Empire redwalker The Lone Star 23 April 8th, 2008 06:40 PM
Sins of a Solar Empire redwalker Random Static 1 February 17th, 2008 11:48 PM
The empire, too large? jackleg Classic Traveller 61 May 24th, 2005 11:53 PM

This website and its contents are copyright ©2010- Far Future Enterprises. All rights reserved. Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises .
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright (c) 2010-2013, Far Future Enterprises. All Rights Reserved.