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  #21  
Old January 29th, 2008, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Echo View Post
Why is this bad as a principle? The worse you are at a task, the quicker you fail.
Uh, the worse you are at at task, the quicker you succeed as well. Surely you can see the absurdity in this?
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  #22  
Old January 29th, 2008, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sablewyvern View Post
For anyone who's interested, my fix to T/E is discussed in some depth in this thread on the Mongoose boards: http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/ph...ic.php?t=32532

tbeard considers it a failure, but it resolves all the issues with T/E to my satisfaction, and actually reduces the amount of fiddliness in the sytem (since you no longer need to modify Timing or Effect dice after the roll, simply reading the die faces as they come up).

Regardless of its merits (or lack thereof), your fix does not work with the combat system, which is where the idiocy of the T/E system comes into full bloom.
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  #23  
Old January 29th, 2008, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
Uh, the worse you are at at task, the quicker you succeed as well. Surely you can see the absurdity in this?
Well, that's what I'm saying. If somebody screws up entirely, it tends to be done pretty quickly. If you almost do it, but fail narrowly, then you may well spend a lot longer getting to that point. That is, more able practitioners take more care (and time) to achieve better results.

It's not something that is neccessarily a universal truth, but you can rationalise it if you want.
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  #24  
Old January 29th, 2008, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Echo View Post
Well, that's what I'm saying. If somebody screws up entirely, it tends to be done pretty quickly. If you almost do it, but fail narrowly, then you may well spend a lot longer getting to that point. That is, more able practitioners take more care (and time) to achieve better results.

It's not something that is neccessarily a universal truth, but you can rationalise it if you want.
Since virtually any result can be rationalized if you try hard enough, this observation doesn't seem to get us very far. Unless you think that the test of a good RPG system is whether its results can be rationalized.
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  #25  
Old January 29th, 2008, 03:03 PM
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I guess my test of a good gaming system is whether or not everyone has fun and enjoys themselves. I don't know if there is a RPG system that I have ever played strickly by the rules. I have always "fudged" die roles for players in either direction just to make the game more enjoyable. JM2C
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  #26  
Old January 29th, 2008, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
Regardless of its merits (or lack thereof), your fix does not work with the combat system, which is where the idiocy of the T/E system comes into full bloom.

This is true; changes of some kind or another do need to be applied to combat (mainly damage) in order for this to work.
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  #27  
Old January 30th, 2008, 04:11 AM
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My little brain has been pondering Sable's and Tbeard's posts and have come up with a possible easy fix to Mongoose's Timing/Effect problems. I don't take credit for this (well I will if it horribly fails), since this is derived from their work.

In a nutshell, reverse the polarity of the dice for the task system, but reverse it back for combat so no major changes must be made to the rules. In more detail:

1. Reverse the Fail/Success Effect charts (a.i. 1-2 is Exceptional while 5-6 is Marginal).

2. Multiply the Timing die by the increment (as Sable has suggested). No need for Mongoose's 7-die adjustment.

3. Do NOT applye task DMs to the Effect die (the result is already skewed towards easier tasks having better results).

4. During combat, use the 7-die adjustment for both determining Initiative and weapon damage multipliers (a.i. a 1 timing die results in a 6 Initiative or a 6 effect die results in x1 damage).

Why make these simple changes? Because it results in very hard tasks taking more time and being accomplished with less favorable successes. Easier tasks will tend to be done more quickly and with better results then difficult ones. The problem with the current Mongoose rules is the reverse is more often true! (as Tbeard has been attempting to point out).

Below I crunched some numbers as Tbeard has to show some results of these simple changes. I have shown the percentages of the varying degrees of success (Marginal / Average / Exceptional) if a roll actually succeeds. To make the number crunching simpler and to make a point, I have only shown what happens if the roller always picks the best result for his Effect die:

-sorry for the poor editting, not sure how to make a table here-

DM / Roll to Succeed / Marginal - Average - Exceptional

-4 / 12+ / 100% na na
-3 / 11+ / 100% na na
-2 / 10+ / 66% 33% na
-1 / 9+ / 40% 60% na
0 / 8+ / 27% 60% 13%
+1 / 7+ / 19% 52% 29%
+2 / 6+ / 15% 46% 39%
+3 / 5+ / 13% 40% 47%
+4 / 4+ / 12% 36% 52%
+5 / 3+ / 12% 34% 54%
+6 / 2+ / 11% 33% 56%

The percentages worked out great in my opinion. Difficult tasks tend to have marginal results, average tasks tend to have average results, and easy tasks tend to have exceptional results. At the extremes, a -4 DM task (that only succeeds by rolling two 6's), only succeeds with marginal results and the maximum time taken. At the other end, high +DM tasks will have a much larger chance to complete the task with good timing and effect results.

Comments please! Hopefully there is not a glaring problem I have not considered. If this gets a thumbs up here I will post it at the Mongoose forum for possible ridicule.

Notes: There are some other minor changes to be made such as editing some Mongoose rules text to use "highest" instead of "lowest" since the polarity has changed. For example, the multiple action rules currently state the lowest die must be used for timing; this would need to be changed to "highest" (this could result in better results then wanted for multiple actions and I have a simple fix for this but didn't want to get into it here in this first post).
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Last edited by Sturn; February 4th, 2008 at 11:19 PM..
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  #28  
Old January 30th, 2008, 04:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
Since virtually any result can be rationalized if you try hard enough, this observation doesn't seem to get us very far. Unless you think that the test of a good RPG system is whether its results can be rationalized.
Not really. I think the test of a good system is how or whether it affects gameplay - everything else can be rationalised.

But you haven't really considered any of my points here. If there is a choice involved by players, about which dice to use for effect/time respectively, then it skews all of your probabilities out, completely.

Your complaint is based upon flawed statistics, and an attitude that refuses to rationalise results in any way that could be beneficial to gameplay.
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Last edited by Echo; January 30th, 2008 at 07:37 AM..
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  #29  
Old January 30th, 2008, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Sturn View Post
Comments please! Hopefully there is not a glaring problem I have not considered. If this gets a thumbs up here I will post it at the Mongoose forum for possible ridicule.
Have you 'Played' this with anyone? I wonder how it flows.

My first reaction is that it looks like it might work, but it feels counter-intuative (roll low is good sometimes and bad other times). It might be a better T/E system and is worth suggesting to Mongoose.

I will stick with 2D6, roll 8+ of CT fame. A simple system for a simple mind, like mine.
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  #30  
Old January 30th, 2008, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Echo View Post
If there is a choice involved by players, about which dice to use for effect/time respectively, then it skews all of your probabilities out, completely.
This is only half true.
A player CHOOSING which Die is Timing and which is Effect changes the specific probabilities in [tbeard1999]'s analysis. However, no matter which die the player chooses, the T/E system generates MANY 'exceptionally good' and 'exceptionally bad' resuts because there will be many rolls containing a 1, 2, 5, or 6 on ONE of the dice. 'Exceptional' results (good and bad) will be the norm and 'average' results (roll 3/3, 3/4, 4/4) will be uncommon.

I think that it will create a game with more of a 'Superhero' feel than a 'gritty realism' since there will be many spectacular successes and horrific failures, but it is a matter of taste whether this is good or bad.

Last edited by atpollard; January 30th, 2008 at 09:32 AM..
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