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  #11  
Old January 25th, 2008, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
Breathe. In through the Nose and out through the Mouth. Again - Deep - Slow. Feel better?

I prefer a straight Roll 2D6, 8+ to hit, myself (and that is supposed to be an option).
But it isn't. The combat system requires that you use the worthless timing/effect mechanic. If the timing/effect system were optional, we wouldn't be having this conversation. It isn't, though. It's integral to the combat system(s). So its limitations, defects and absurdities become highly relevant, at least to me.

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The issue of cannot miss/cannot hit situations is part of every game mechanic. Either you accept it, or you create some version of the "1 always fails and 20 always succeeds" rule. I prefer to always allow some chance, but that is just my preference.
Agreed, but this isn't my complaint.

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Is it really such a 'game killer' if an unskilled character spraying the room with bullets has so little control over the weapon that he cannot hit his target?
If that were the sole problem, maybe not, although combat is very important to me.

However, *every* application of the timing/effect system seems to require either a (a) "it isn't really a game killer" handwave; or (b) desperate and vain attempts to house-rule it into shape.

I'd also note that your statement could be used to excuse any mechanic.

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He could fire a weapon with shorter bursts or get more skill before attempting that task. It affects in game decisions, but has it really proven unworkable? What about all of the other possible combinations that result in an automatic failure or success - do you feel this strongly about them?
Not sure I understand the question.

I generally object to mechanics that make an automatic result the norm. Especially where the statistical qualities aren't intuitively obvious to players or referees.

I am also not in favor of another crappy version of Traveller. Because of its marketing prowess, Mongoose's version will be the definitive version of Traveller. And that's gonna be a damn shame, if these defects remain unaddressed.

I note that Mongoose folks have not answered any of my questions on the Mongoose Traveller forum, though they've been active in other threads. Not a good sign.
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  #12  
Old January 25th, 2008, 12:28 PM
sablewyvern sablewyvern is offline
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I don't have a problem with unskilled automatic fire being innefective, but there is an issue if automatic fire is always the better option for a skilled marksman. Ideally, except when firing machineguns on fixed lines or the like, single shots should be preferred.

Making the optimum range for autofire Close for all weapons goes some way to achieving this with minimal effort, however.
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  #13  
Old January 25th, 2008, 12:34 PM
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I don't have a problem with unskilled automatic fire being innefective, but there is an issue if automatic fire is always the better option for a skilled marksman. Ideally, except when firing machineguns on fixed lines or the like, single shots should be preferred.

Making the optimum range for autofire Close for all weapons goes some way to achieving this with minimal effort, however.
Sigh.

Yet another house rule to cover a basic defect in the system? How many house rules will it take for you to consider that perhaps the timing/effect system simply does not work?
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  #14  
Old January 25th, 2008, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by tbeard1999;247570The result is [I
wheeeeeeeeeee[/I], another crappy version of Traveller.
While I'm laughing and scratching my belly at this, I'm also nodding my head in agreement.

I had such high hopes for MGT. Mongoose did a superb job on Conan. I was expecting something really special with their treatment of Traveller.

What I'm seeing looks to me like a GM writing his own house rules, not fully thought-out, with holes, rather than what a professional game designer should be putting together.

That's not to say that the system doesn't already have its fans. Most negative (if well meaning and hopefully constructive) feedback on the system posted to the MGT forum seems to get hounded by 2 or 3 rabid MGT fans who drown out all reason.

I don't have a grudge against MGT. Hell, I want it to be a good system.

But, like TBeard, I'm tired of seeing these opportunities go by where something great for Traveller could be created when insteads we get the same old milktoast rules that need to be modded and houseruled right out of the gate.

I'm disappointed.
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  #15  
Old January 25th, 2008, 12:50 PM
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Yet another house rule to cover a basic defect in the system? How many house rules will it take for you to consider that perhaps the timing/effect system simply does not work?
Isn't this thread meant to be about discussing a problem and possible fixes for that problem? Dropping Timing/Effect is one possible fix, but some of us would (for our own strange reasons ) prefer to see it kept.

Personally, I like Timing/Effect, and I like the rules I've built around it -- something I think we've established fairly comprehensively. That you don't like Timing/Effect has been similarly determined. Obviously, we're coming at the whole issue from very different angles.

On this particular issue, I had already dropped the Optimum range for autofire to Close amongst my tweaks, although I hadn't realised how necessary such a change might be. So, I'm not really adding another house rule -- I've just found that one I already felt necessary for versimiltude also has strong mechanical benefits.

Last edited by sablewyvern; January 25th, 2008 at 12:52 PM.. Reason: Added quote for clarity, since Sup4 posted in front of me
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  #16  
Old January 25th, 2008, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Supplement Four View Post
I haven't been keeping up with the play test because Mongoose already lost me. I think CT is better.
Because I cannot resist ...

... even if MoT only provides CT compatible Vehicles, Attributes and Weapons, it is not impossible that CT+ (or ACT, or any other attempts at a CT mechanic) could see publication under the OGL.



Here are two one line rules that will solve 90% of the task problems. Pick your favorite one:

OPTIONAL RULE-1: For all tasks use 1 red die (always timing) and multiple white die (always effect).

OPTIONAL RULE-2: For all tasks use 1 red die (always timing) and multiple white die (always effect), with a roll of exactly 2 always indicating failure and a roll of exactly 12 always indicating success.

(If I were writing the rules, I would make the option of SELECTING the Timing die a carefully crafted EXCEPTION to the above rule - perhaps to benefit a single-shot rifle type of task.)

Last edited by atpollard; January 25th, 2008 at 12:56 PM..
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  #17  
Old January 25th, 2008, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by sablewyvern View Post
I don't have a problem with unskilled automatic fire being innefective...
What about Grandma Jones picking up the SMG that was left on the sofa, pointing it, and letting lose, full auto, at an intruder coming in through the sliding glass door, just 10 feet away.

Shouldn't there be at least some chance that Grandma, even though old and fragile and unskilled might hit the intruder, just 10 feet away, in the hail of wild bullets pumping out of the end of that SMG that Grandma can barely hold in her hands?
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  #18  
Old January 25th, 2008, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Supplement Four View Post
What about Grandma Jones picking up the SMG that was left on the sofa, pointing it, and letting lose, full auto, at an intruder coming in through the sliding glass door, just 10 feet away.

Shouldn't there be at least some chance that Grandma, even though old and fragile and unskilled might hit the intruder, just 10 feet away, in the hail of wild bullets pumping out of the end of that SMG that Grandma can barely hold in her hands?
Grandma has the option of using burst fire or a shotgun. Problem solved.
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  #19  
Old January 25th, 2008, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by sablewyvern View Post
Personally, I like Timing/Effect...
Just to be clear, from my end of things, I don't dislike the idea behind the timing/effect die.

If a way (and easy way) could be found to use the idea and not have the problems it creates, then I'd be all for it.

As it is, though, the T/E die seems to cause more problems than its worth having.

If you can't find a way for the T/E effect to work without house-ruling it to death, then the mechanic has got to go.

At least, that's what a good game designer would do.
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  #20  
Old January 25th, 2008, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Supplement Four View Post
Just to be clear, from my end of things, I don't dislike the idea behind the timing/effect die.

If a way (and easy way) could be found to use the idea and not have the problems it creates, then I'd be all for it.

As it is, though, the T/E die seems to cause more problems than its worth having.

If you can't find a way for the T/E effect to work without house-ruling it to death, then the mechanic has got to go.

At least, that's what a good game designer would do.
See, I'm rarely happy with rules I design myself from scratch. Even when I am, I generally lack the motivation to finish a project.

However, I love working with a pre-existing framework, so I've had a great time playing with Timing/Effect to get it to behave the way I want it to. I was happy when tbeard started this thread, because it gives me a reason to go back and see if I need to do more tweaking.

Which isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of the official system, but it meets all my needs (even if not out of the box).
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