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  #51  
Old January 30th, 2008, 05:08 PM
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Thankyou, sir.

I'm quite happy with those stats. The rest is more a matter of taste, I guess. Personally I don't see it as any more fussy, as for in it's probably most common incarnation, combat, you're just taking the number as is. For the other tasks, the Ref is going to interpret what the result actually looks like. Atm, the ref is looking at a number threshold. All I'm doing is substituting '1-2' with '4 or less', and '5-6' with '9 or more'.

(And it is the point of T/E that the player gets a choice over whether the result is better but slower or faster but not as good.)

I think it all depends on the stakes. The ref should make the player aware what the possible outcomes might be. It won't take long for them to realise the general rule that the better the mod the more likely the better results occur, success or fail.

ref: "The net modifier is +2. The max possible Effect is 8, the minimum is 3. Roll..."
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  #52  
Old January 30th, 2008, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klaus View Post
Thankyou, sir.

I'm quite happy with those stats. The rest is more a matter of taste, I guess. Personally I don't see it as any more fussy, as for in it's probably most common incarnation, combat, you're just taking the number as is.
I should've been clear on what I meant. In most respects, your system seems about as fussy as the original system. However, since you break differently depending on success or failure (ie, on a failure, the break points are 0-, 1-4, 5+; while on a success the break points are 4-, 5-8, 9+), your system is marginally more fussy. If you don't mind the current system's fussiness, I don't think your system will alter that. So I wouldn't make too much of my assertion that it's more fussy.
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  #53  
Old January 30th, 2008, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
I should've been clear on what I meant. In most respects, your system seems about as fussy as the original system. However, since you break differently depending on success or failure (ie, on a failure, the break points are 0-, 1-4, 5+; while on a success the break points are 4-, 5-8, 9+), your system is marginally more fussy. If you don't mind the current system's fussiness, I don't think your system will alter that. So I wouldn't make too much of my assertion that it's more fussy.
Well, that's the taste test, innit?

Given that Timing is already making the execution of a task fussier (ie: can only act when Timing is 6), a lil' bit more for effect doesn't hurt me. I like the added detail and grit it gives me. But that's just me.

Having said that, in a way it reduces fussiness, as you don't have to roll damage. 2 rolls become 1.

Less times you have to roll the dice, the less times you drop one on the floor and have to scrabble around on the carpet looking for it.
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  #54  
Old January 30th, 2008, 05:45 PM
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Thanks for the analysis Tbeard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
The system is extremely unintuitive. Now, high rolls are good, but really high rolls are bad.....
What you end up wanting is the lowest possible roll that still succeeds. I agree this is different then what most players expect. This is counter to most game systems and would take a game session to get a hang of.

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Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
At the end of the day, I think that there are far easier and more intuitive ways to produce the same information...
I agree. I prefer a system where the higher I roll over a target number, the more successful I am.

But, Mogoose is not going to totally revamp its system. They are going to stay with 2D6 with timing/effect no matter what happens. I don't want to house-rule an entire NEW system when I'm playing Mongoose Traveller. What I was hoping for is a tweak to the system that could be accepted by some who feel the current rules are broken.
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  #55  
Old January 30th, 2008, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturn View Post
But, Mogoose is not going to totally revamp its system. They are going to stay with 2D6 with timing/effect no matter what happens. I don't want to house-rule an entire NEW system when I'm playing Mongoose Traveller. What I was hoping for is a tweak to the system that could be accepted by some who feel the current rules are broken.
I guess it will depend on why someone feels the current rules are broken. I can see two major objections to the system:

If you (like me) dislike the current system because it yields dubious results then you will find much to like in either of the alternative systems proposed here.

If you (like me) dislike the current system because you consider it to be too fussy -- i.e., the information produced is not worth the hassle -- you won't be happy with the new systems either.

Although, one out of two is better than none out of two.

My problem is that I can easily conceive of alternative systems that will provide the same information as the T/E system with a lot less trouble. I've been candid throughout the discussion -- I don't like the T/E system because I don't think its fun. The statistical absurdities just added insult to injury (and, I think, raised legitimate questions about the competence of the designers).

That said, I have no problem agreeing that either of these solutions appears to resolve the most glaring statistical issues. It's a tough call; sablewyvern's system seems less fiddly than klaus's system, but klaus's system seems more intuitive than sablewyvern's system.

I'll be very curious to see if either system gains any traction with current fans of the system. For grins, I predict that they'll be more likely to go for klaus's system just because high rolls in his system are unambiguously good. However, I'm skeptical that either one will attract much attention. A shame, since both are markedly superior to the current system.

Last edited by tbeard1999; January 30th, 2008 at 06:10 PM..
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  #56  
Old January 30th, 2008, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klaus View Post
Along with this I've offered a suggested way to fix the skewing of results, one that fits exactly with the concept in the playtest doc. (And in fact 'fixes' another issue too, weapon damage).

I have added a rational that IMHO makes sense and is reasonable.

Now, it just needs to be tested to destruction.
One of the aggrevating problems, though, for us Traveller GMs who can plainly see that the MGT system is broken is that Mongoose is not listening.

So, MGT will be published with the flaws, and GMs who recognize the flaw, post publication, will have to make their own fixes.

I object to the milktoast game system being published in the first place.

Why not publish a good game system?
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  #57  
Old January 30th, 2008, 06:32 PM
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While I have no expectations whatsoever that my or anyone else's fix is going to be adopted by MGT, it is probably incorrect to assume that the current playtest doc is going to be the same as the published one.

They may have already fixed it to their and statistical satisfaction. Just because they haven't shared it with a public playtest forum does not mean it is not happening.

There have been the odd comments from Mongoose Control saying they are looking at some issues that have been raised, but so far these have not appeared in the latest playtest doc. This doesn't necessarily mean they are ignoring them.

In fact, it does not make good business sense to reveal your 95% ready product in a public place that is mainly populated by your first customers.

So even if you are skeptical it's still worth waiting and seeing.

But I'm an optimist at heart...
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  #58  
Old January 30th, 2008, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klaus View Post
While I have no expectations whatsoever that my or anyone else's fix is going to be adopted by MGT, it is probably incorrect to assume that the current playtest doc is going to be the same as the published one.
I've been told that this is what happened with Runequest. But Runequest still wound up with some pretty dubious changes.

Personally, I can't see the benefit in playing Hide the Ball with your playtesters. If they do this, I'll be even less impressed with their business acumen... (Unless, of course, they do exactly what I personally want and ditch both the initiative system and the damage system... )
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  #59  
Old January 30th, 2008, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
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They may have already fixed it to their and statistical satisfaction.
What TBeard said immediately above.

Plus: From what I've seen of the previous work, Mongoose isn't doing a lot of statistical analysis to begin with.
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  #60  
Old January 31st, 2008, 12:26 AM
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I can only hope and wait.

Daniel
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