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  #201  
Old February 24th, 2007, 04:20 PM
Malenfant
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Well maybe that's what Marc should do. Forget about making a usable game that people will actually play, just make something for collectors to buy so they can have one more thing that gathers dust on their shelves or crates.

I used to collect RPGs too, I've got an entire cupboard full at home and two shelves worth here. But at some point it just hit me - I had bought about 10 RPGs over the past few months and hadn't even opened half of them (the other half I just flicked through and put on the shelf). And then I thought "why the hell am I wasting money on things I'm not even using?"

I haven't bought an RPG book in months now, and only bought a few PDFs (that I've read) in that period. And my money's gone instead on things I am actually getting something out of, like food or CDs or DVDs.

But picture this - if most of the people who buy T5 just buy it for the sake of 'adding to their collection' then what do you think that says about T5 as a game? Because you know, that's what it supposedly is, not "a collection of doodlings and random ideas about game design that Marc Miller is just throwing out there for people to collect".
  #202  
Old February 25th, 2007, 12:25 AM
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And if so? It his license. That irks you to no end, doesn't it?

Imagine what you could do with it, if it was yours.

So do it, create your own game and license, or get a license from Marc, and prove all of us (so you claim) Aging, Obsessive types who will always love Traveller (pronounced in a hushed tone) wrong.
  #203  
Old February 25th, 2007, 12:26 AM
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My point, Rhialto was that "Yes, I'll be buying it, along with other games" in response to a question.
  #204  
Old February 25th, 2007, 01:16 AM
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You have an interesting market situation with Traveller. AD&D is suffering from market fragmentation now too (though WOTC is big enough it is sometimes hard to see). They're talking about pushing a 4.0 version out (aargh... I'm not even done buying useful parts of 3.5!). That's a sign. Another sign is games like Conan, Iron Heroes, and the work Monte Cook has done separately. And so many OGL games floating around that people can pick and choose their exact set of particulars from. AD&D is going to hit another wall shortly I think, as a consequence.

Traveller, OTOH, is already there. T20 was a brilliant idea, in that it was an idea of how to hack into the D20/OGL market. It might have been better to mate it closer to Spycraft (as did Stargate SG-1) or D20 Modern or Future to truly harness that tie in (T20 is unique enough many parts of it still require some learning). I am sick enough of seeing rule verion after rule version - that's why I like OGL games. Levels sorta suck, as do feats, but at the same time, when I pickup a new D20/OGL game, I can pick it up faster because much of what I have already learned is preserved. That's no small feature.

To my mind, Traveller therefore had three viable editions/rulesets: CT (and I include MT because the rules were close in many ways), T20, and GT. GT is winding down - they did some good work, but most of it is *done*. They really don't need to do much more. T20 had lots of work left to do, but the real world seems to have paralyzed QLI so it is (for the moment, and perhaps longer) dead.

So what does that leave? CT. Or CT + better tasks and a few updates. Otherwise known as the MT rules without errata. Ruleset wise, a good skill system that have a good diversity of skills but also have a simple in-play mechanism (several difficulty levels, a common way to apply difficulty mods, etc), is critical. Give me that and generally I can run a game without anything else or even reference to the books (except occasionally).

T4 may have ended up with nice rules (Brilliant Lances, T2K 2.2 engine), but that's effectively a deader. T4 just didn't have a lot of traction. T5 looks like (under current direction) it will have even less.

Sure the community is full of ageing grongnards with CT roots. Heck, most of us who play MT or TNE or even T4 have CT roots! The way to pry money out of those folks is CT++. A lot of folks hated the Rebellion. But that wasn't MT's most important contribution - skill system rationalization was. CT++ could be CT + BITS skill system. Or the MT system revisited and tweaked. That would preserve the CT feeling. Preserve the mechanical feeling of CT, don't couple a new edition too tightly to any radical setting surgery (TNE, Virus, Empress Wave, Rebellion, Assassination, etc) and you've got something CT players and MT players and even some other players would buy. And you have ONE ruleset to go forward (with the T20 and GT branches dead or paralyzed).

Make that ruleset, make products in support of it, some of them generic, some of them setting specific, and you'll at least sell some stuff.

Otherwise, Grognards will buy the old PDFs, introduce any new players to old CT (as the TNE, T4 and T20 people are doing) and not much will sell. Hackmaster is an example of the power of the Grognard - D&D is way past this, but they seem to be making a lot of stuff and selling it, while basically running off old original AD&D rules more or less. Ignore that marketing reality at your peril.
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  #205  
Old February 25th, 2007, 01:37 AM
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Quote:
Traveller is not accessible to outsiders. Several rules sets, several settings.
I don't get this at all, not as a gamer. seems to me that several rule sets and several settings make the game more accessible, not less. I doubt traveller fans are the only ones that pick a certain ruleset and stick to it.
Quote:
Traveller can't afford this image if it is to appeal to outsiders.
I'm sure there are publication-side issues that need to be addressed. but as a gamer, seems to me traveller will appeal to outsiders if they see something they want to play.

"yeah ... yeah, I want to be that."

perhaps that's the real problem?
Quote:
Take the basic CT system, clean it up and update it a bit. Add some of the better new ideas from later editions. THAT is the best chance you have to produce a baseline rules set that enough of the fan base will like to actually use.
again, which better new ideas, and how so determined? I mean, you're covering a lot of ground there with a few words.

and what exactly is stopping anyone from doing this?
  #206  
Old February 25th, 2007, 02:45 AM
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I agree principally with what Kaladorn says. That's pretty much my experience, except that I also enjoyed T4.

Flykiller Wrote:
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again, which better new ideas, and how so determined?
That's exactly the current problem, in that with all those rules, nobody agrees 100%, including me.
  #207  
Old February 25th, 2007, 04:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />[qb]Traveller is not accessible to outsiders. Several rules sets, several settings.
I don't get this at all, not as a gamer. seems to me that several rule sets and several settings make the game more accessible, not less. I doubt traveller fans are the only ones that pick a certain ruleset and stick to it.</font>[/QUOTE]Because having many choices available is a bad thing for a newcomer. You'll find in a lot of fields that if too many choices are offered it just ends up confusing the customer and putting them off the whole thing. Whereas if you give them one or two choices at most they'll more often go for what you offer them.

Though I'd say that Martin knows what he's talking about enough that everything he says doesn't need to be questioned.


Quote:
and what exactly is stopping anyone from doing this?
Marc Miller. He already nipped CT+ in the bud when Hunter proposed it, and he vetoed ACT, and both of those would have taken the approach that Martin described.

I'm sure I'll be accused of Marc-bashing again by our resident pack of howler monkeys here... but you did ask, and that's what stopped anyone from doing it.
  #208  
Old February 25th, 2007, 05:24 AM
MJD MJD is offline
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Flykiller... I'm not going to explain my cleaned-up CT concept because it sat down and wrote the whole damn thing. It's ready to publish... but the license was vetoed because it might detract from other Traveller rulesets. I infer T5.

I did indeed feel free to create my own game. I did it (ACT) and now I'm working on another complete entire game.

I also publish a line of Traveller prodicts. But here's a thing. Far too many people look at Avenger stuff and say ' not my favoured rules set' or 'not my favoured era'. I need to reach a certain number of customers and divisions in a closed marketplace do not assist that.

When the day comes that the market fragments beyond viability there will be no more official Traveller. We can all play our houserules and stare at the dusty collection, but there will be nothing new.

That's what I want to avert. And before anyone says 'feel free to try it you whining jerk' I'll point out that I've been trying for years.

ACT was an attempt at the cleaned up rules set.

1248 reconciles the various styles of setting, gets rid of the worst of various settings. Eg, the stagnant Imperium, Virus, the Rebellion, the fact that the future is already written.... all fixed. 1248 is free and open, and there's room to play your favourite style of Travller whatever that may be.
  #209  
Old February 25th, 2007, 05:45 AM
Liam Devlin Liam Devlin is offline
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I'll let MJD have the last word gentlemen. Now retire the field, tis muddy enow, and we know who is who, and where stands on another.

I bid you all adieu, and g'night..

this thread is closed, and the die is cast..

sincerely,
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