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  #21  
Old September 5th, 2018, 06:28 AM
AnotherDilbert AnotherDilbert is offline
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Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
Well, IIRC, TL 10 in GURPS space included Antimatter and slow FTL communications... I don't see it as TL 10-11 for Traveller.
GURPS TL ≠ GURPS Traveller TL ≠ Traveller TL.

Why make it simple?
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  #22  
Old September 5th, 2018, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
GURPS used their 3e TL scale for their adaptation of G:T and thie 4e TL scale for GT:ISW.
Approximately it converts like this
GTL9 = TTL9
GTL10 = TTL10/11
GTL11 = TTL12
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Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
Well, IIRC, TL 10 in GURPS space included Antimatter and slow FTL communications... I don't see it as TL 10-11 for Traveller.
GURPS:4e has a different TL paradigm than GURPS:3e.

In generic GURPS:4e, GTL:8 is the modern day today, and GTL12 is the HIGHEST tech-level that officially exists, and is the equivalent of Star Trek and/or the Ancients (i.e. "technological magic").

The scale between GTL8 and GTL12 is based on reasonably conservative hard-science projections based on modern understanding and speculation. Anything other than Conservative Hard Science projections are defined in 4e as "super-science technologies", and have no officially assigned GTL (although they generally provide a suggested GTL). Superscience is entirely the domain of the GM (to be assigned or not assigned to his/her universe as he/she wishes) and is denoted by a "carat" in front of the GTL number (e.g. TL^10). For Traveller, things like Jump Drive, gravitics, nuclear dampers, FTL Communications etc., would all be superscience technologies assigned to the OTU setting at tech-levels set by the game designers for their setting (or forbidden/impossible technologies), on a case-by-case basis.

In 4e, GTL12 (and GTL^12) are technologies beyond golden-age 3I understanding (i.e. Ancients-level tech, etc). GTL11/GTL^11 would be the highest GTL available in any OTU setting based on GURPS UltraTech 4e.

I would think the conversion would be approximately:

GTL 9 = TTL 9-10
GTL 10 = TTL 11-12
GTL 11 = TTL 13-16
GTL 12 = TTL 17/18+

Of course, it is not a perfect conversion going from one TL system to the other. While the ISW Era supposedly has a max TTL of 12, there are suggestion from some T4 materials (notably T4: Emperor's Arsenal) that the ISW and RoM eras did reach higher TLs in some limited fields before the Long Night.
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  #23  
Old September 6th, 2018, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
This lead me to reconsider the history of Interstellar Wars as it has been told to now, as I keep believing (and have stated already many times, something I know some of you dont agree) that the history narrative should be understandable from the rules POV in a setting that is derived from a game (and so, its rules).
Mongoose Traveller is a reboot.
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  #24  
Old September 6th, 2018, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by whulorigan View Post
GURPS:4e has a different TL paradigm than GURPS:3e.

In generic GURPS:4e, GTL:8 is the modern day today, and GTL12 is the HIGHEST tech-level that officially exists, and is the equivalent of Star Trek and/or the Ancients (i.e. "technological magic").

The scale between GTL8 and GTL12 is based on reasonably conservative hard-science projections based on modern understanding and speculation. Anything other than Conservative Hard Science projections are defined in 4e as "super-science technologies", and have no officially assigned GTL (although they generally provide a suggested GTL). Superscience is entirely the domain of the GM (to be assigned or not assigned to his/her universe as he/she wishes) and is denoted by a "carat" in front of the GTL number (e.g. TL^10). For Traveller, things like Jump Drive, gravitics, nuclear dampers, FTL Communications etc., would all be superscience technologies assigned to the OTU setting at tech-levels set by the game designers for their setting (or forbidden/impossible technologies), on a case-by-case basis.

In 4e, GTL12 (and GTL^12) are technologies beyond golden-age 3I understanding (i.e. Ancients-level tech, etc). GTL11/GTL^11 would be the highest GTL available in any OTU setting based on GURPS UltraTech 4e.

I would think the conversion would be approximately:

GTL 9 = TTL 9-10
GTL 10 = TTL 11-12
GTL 11 = TTL 13-16
GTL 12 = TTL 17/18+

Of course, it is not a perfect conversion going from one TL system to the other. While the ISW Era supposedly has a max TTL of 12, there are suggestion from some T4 materials (notably T4: Emperor's Arsenal) that the ISW and RoM eras did reach higher TLs in some limited fields before the Long Night.
In GT:ISW the jump 3 drive and meson spinals are TL11, that equates to TTL12.
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  #25  
Old September 6th, 2018, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ShawnDriscoll View Post
Mongoose Traveller is a reboot.
And that's why I thought the ISW history should also be rebooted, while keeping most of it as it was, but adapting it to the rules.

I guess the main events may be kept as they have always been, this just adding another factor to explain the Terran victory against what was a larger Naval force with long tradition.

Of course, naval design does not explain it by itself, just another factor (I let to anyone to decide how decisive or trivial in his adaptation of the OTU).
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  #26  
Old September 6th, 2018, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ShawnDriscoll View Post
Mongoose Traveller is a reboot.
Mongoose Traveller is many things, but a re-boot it is not.

T5 is the re-boot, MgT 2e can't even differentiate between 3I setting material and generic sci fi stuff.

GT:ISW is probably one of the best resources produced for Traveller - it has a few minor contentious points and a major one, but it does the setting justice.

Early MgT 3I supplements read like the authors had never read up on any CT material and were just going by fanon and collective (erroneous) memory.
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  #27  
Old September 6th, 2018, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
And that's why I thought the ISW history should also be rebooted, while keeping most of it as it was, but adapting it to the rules.
Why adapt to MgT 1e rules when they themselves have been re-booted by MgT2e and HG2e?

Quote:
I guess the main events may be kept as they have always been, this just adding another factor to explain the Terran victory against what was a larger Naval force with long tradition.
The reason for the Terran victory is more down to the collapse of the Imperium due to many other factors rather than Terran superiority.
A provincial governor refusing to lose face with his superiors by revealing his inability to deal with the Terran threat.
The Terran advantage of having a population base of 12 billion.
Nearby planets who wanted to break away from the Imperium and would throw their lot in with the Terrans - Vegans and others.

If even a small section of the Imperial Navy had been committed to bolster the provincial forces that fought the Terrans there wouldn't have been n interstellar wars, there would have been two.
The first war - the Terrans attacking the Imperial outposts; the second - the complete destruction of the Terran navy and the surrender or scrubbing of Earth.

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Of course, naval design does not explain it by itself, just another factor (I let to anyone to decide how decisive or trivial in his adaptation of the OTU).
Well we do know the Terran jump 3 drive and meson spinal shocked the Imperium, but the sheer size of the Imperial navy would have made quick work of the Terrans if it had ever been brought to battle.

Re-writing a major OTU event to a newer rules system is a laudable goal, but I would recommend you get GT:ISW if you want the best treatment of the period to date (despite the aforementioned minor and major inconsistency).
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  #28  
Old September 6th, 2018, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
Mongoose Traveller is many things, but a re-boot it is not.

T5 is the re-boot, MgT 2e can't even differentiate between 3I setting material and generic sci fi stuff.
No, both are reboots.

MGT 1E official setting is 1105. Pre 5FW. New rules, different ship plans, different LL meanings. Slightly different physical cosmology. All crosses the line into reboot.

T5 is also a reboot - new rules, different ship plans, different limits on trade, travel, and even physical cosmology. Also into a reboot.
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  #29  
Old September 6th, 2018, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by aramis View Post
No, both are reboots.
So two conflicting reboots, one of which has since been rebooted again.

At least it gives us something to discuss for 40 years
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MGT 1E official setting is 1105. Pre 5FW. New rules, different ship plans, different LL meanings. Slightly different physical cosmology. All crosses the line into reboot.
It is an ATU the same as GT.
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T5 is also a reboot - new rules, different ship plans, different limits on trade, travel, and even physical cosmology. Also into a reboot.
One that has at least produced an excellent work of fiction, shame there has been no setting released yet.
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  #30  
Old September 6th, 2018, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
Why adapt to MgT 1e rules when they themselves have been re-booted by MgT2e and HG2e?
Mainly because for now I'm not involved in MgT2e. just 1e.

Also because the change on space battle paradigm among MgT1e:HG and CT:HG/MT is so high that the designs that worked on CT:HG/MT don't in MgT1e (mostly the missiles and spinals changes I told about).
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Last edited by McPerth; September 17th, 2018 at 12:01 PM.. Reason: typos
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