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Non-Traveller Gaming A forum specifically for discussing those other games we like to play.

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  #31  
Old June 21st, 2018, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
My guess is that it's not wargame that has changed. Its the whorld at large. In hte 1990's, we waited patiently for the next issue of our favourite TV show, now one can look for it in the web, als ographics in the games were poor, so the games had to be attractive for their playing, and on line gaming was unusual at best...

All those changes (mostly technological) have brought some changes in metality too. Now you don't need to meet your friends to keep them on touch, nor to play with them, and, the same way that ebooks are replacing (to a part at least) dead tree ones, computer gaming has replaced (to a point too) board gaming.

You don't need a place to deploy the game (something important in the larges ones), to leave it deployed if you don't finish it in a session, nor even to meet at the same place. And this computer gaming has improved in graphics, making them attractive for them, in many cases at the loss of rules and the game itself..

And yet, I also miss the 90's, but I guess it's moslty because then I was in my 20's, while now I'm in my early 50's...
I have a copy of the Lord of the Rings board game. I played it once. It took me over a hour just to place the pieces on the board.

While in Everquest, there are people who play for over 30 hours per week. 15 to 40 players go on a raid to kill a named. i.e. Players in a large group go attack a large dragon, a very large giant, etc.

I'm a casual EQ player, I game there about 5 hours per week.


I have several 8-bit games for my Amiga computer. The games are 2D, with a character of a flat drawing sliding across a flat drawing of a game area. Everquest is a 3D game with some great graphics. EQ 2's graphics are better.
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  #32  
Old June 21st, 2018, 09:02 AM
Terquem Terquem is offline
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I'll be honest and say I don't think I completely understand or agree with the argument about the change in games over the years.

Complexity vs Prettiness?

last night I bought Gloomhaven - very pretty, dice-less combat system, campaign rules, 1700 cards

Oh, and I think I threw my back out carrying it to the car.
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  #33  
Old June 21st, 2018, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Terquem View Post
I'll be honest and say I don't think I completely understand or agree with the argument about the change in games over the years.
I concur; when we dig into it there’s detail about what older complex games we like, but only vague references to “games these days.”

It stirs some people up, certainly.
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  #34  
Old June 21st, 2018, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Spenser TR View Post
I concur; when we dig into it there’s detail about what older complex games we like, but only vague references to “games these days.”

It stirs some people up, certainly.
Well, like I said, maybe I'm wrong on that. However, when I started to watch Wil Wheaton's Table Top a few years back, a show where the opening montage has a classic D&D figure and a polyhedral die, I was struck by the fact that his show was about board games with cards (mostly), and how there was little in the way of RPing or wargaming.

And that's kind of the sense I got when I went to the last few cons. It seemed like there were more of those kinds of games, with lots of production values (professional art and other graphics, slick packaging and overall high production values) than say a tank game from any modern warfare era, or say a US Civil War game.

Again, just my impression. I don't know it to be true or not.
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  #35  
Old June 21st, 2018, 12:40 PM
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I don't mean to be rude or disparaging of your opinions, but I think, in the long run, what might be most relevant is that Games and Game Design hasn't change all that much, whereas gamers, as they grow older, change a great deal.

We tend to look fondly back on those games we found when we were thirteen years old as something very special, while the games we find when we are 54 have less of an impact on us, typically.

This is just my opinion.

As I said, I just bought Gloomhaven. The game is getting amazing reviews, and my three adult sons all want to play it with me as a group, while I am not too terribly impressed. In fact I find it a bit intimidating. It looks complicated, but I'll also say it looks great (as you've mentioned, many new games are presented in ways games like Rivits would never have compared to).

That games get more attention today, and through Kickstarter can amass greater capital to allow them to achieve design and presentation standards that game designers forty years ago could not hope to be able to get to, is also a critical factor. But I believe the only reason why these Kickstarter programs can generate such huge investments out the gate is because of the rich history of these sorts of games that this generation has access to, because of the internet.

When I was in my late thirties, if I wanted to tell someone about Melee or Wizard, or PanzerBlitz, I would need to have my copy of the game handy otherwise I would get blank stares of confusion. Now, I can bring up a link on my phone and show someone the game I am talking about, and then link to discussions about the game that any newcomer can read until they are sick to their stomach of reading about how moving from one bush to another shouldn't make you invisible, haha.
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  #36  
Old June 21st, 2018, 02:39 PM
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I honestly don't really have the patience or time to learn a complicated game any more.

The post about Everquest is telling. I play World of Warcraft.

I play that because I can pick it up and put it down. There's no real setup time, but it's broad and deep. As for it's mechanics and complexities, I'm a crummy player. But that's because of the real time aspect. Were it "turn by turn", my "rotation" (using the character abilities in the optimal way) would be perfect. But since it's real time, there's a cognitive and coordination load that interferes with me executing combat "perfectly". That's why there are "better" players than I am. But I muddle through, get by, and in general am a net positive contributor. I'm not horrible, but put another player on my character with my gear, and there are those that will do more damage and take less damage than I would in the same fight.

But even though I put in several hours a week, it's a casual game for me. There's no setting it up, no recruiting players, none of the herding cats aspects the affect the social aspects around gaming. There CAN be, since there is certainly group play in the game. But I join ad hoc groups. This allows me to sign up to do group content with complete strangers, go about my business doing solo stuff and, if the queue pops, I get ported in to the group event. If not, and my time runs out, no big deal.

I can play in the morning before work, in the evening after work. Both. Neither.

I could play some other computer game, like Civilization, or something like that. But I like the "world" aspect of the game. Being around other people, even complete strangers, even if I don't directly interact with them. Just seeing folks jumping and leaping though the city, dancing on mailboxes, riding by in the wild.

It's social and anonymous at the same time.

But this goes back to when a friend wanted to start up an D&D group, and they even brought a DM guy to start it off. The guy starts off talking about Pathfinder, and where we can download the rule book, or whatever. And I told him up front that right off, I wasn't interested in rolling up a character, picking a persona, reading a bunch of rules, or anything else. We hadn't played in forever, and I didn't want to spend any time, especially not initially, "not playing". I told him if we weren't killing monsters in the first 15 minutes, I wasn't interested. I didn't want to spend the nights session rolling up characters, going over mechanics, "hanging out in town", "gathering rumors", or "talking to the king about where his daughter is".

I wanted action, I wanted it right away. The first words out of my mouth after a brief intro better be something akin to "I kick the door". "I swing my axe" being the base level of the mechanics I wanted to know about early on. He can tell me what dice I need to roll. He can tell me what numbers I need. Just give me a character and let's go. I will learn the nuances of the rules in situ. In the end, if we liked what we did, enjoyed the experience, THEN we could work more on characters, get more involved in the rules and mechanics and what not.

But starting off? Heck no. Time is limited and I want to get to the meat of it fast and early just to see if I even liked the style of play anymore.

And, as I expected, we got busy and nothing happened. Imagine how "fun" it would have been had if we did indeed get together, and spent the session doing bookkeeping and "role play" and then never came back. No, forget that. Not interested.

Younger, I had time to spend 5-6-8 hours to learn, set up, play, chat, etc. Not anymore. Not hardly. Gaming fills gaps now.
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  #37  
Old June 21st, 2018, 05:28 PM
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Hey whartung, me to.

We used to spend one game session mostly rolling p characters, but got into the game quickly. Which is why I never left off liking first editon ad&d. Less set up time, no figuring out what part of the plethora of skills I have. Thats also one of the things that bothers me about Everquest 2. Skill trees.

The hardest 1e ad&d games for me to run were at one game store. I wanted the table up front in the store. I was told I had to accept up to 12 players. I had to think on my feet right away.

People joined my game session, in progress. Sometimes i had as few as 8 players.

At home, I typically had 5 to 7 players.

I prefer a merc and my character in EQ. Or I solo. I have grouped, back around 2004 through 2005. But the other players would just start moving around the zone/gaming area... no info, didn't do a group tell ( text all of us could read).

I have played WoW. It just seemed to me to be more grouping than solo. But I did enjoy it. I've played LotR Online. Egad its a gorup game, and other players would just run off and leave my character. So I left that game.

One tedious MMO I played, don't remember the name, but you had to run your character back and forth across the city to talk to numerous NPCs in order to get the 'armor/weapon of the day'. Often the ones your character had to talk to, were near each other. But in order to talk to NPC C, you had to spend 5 minutes going way over there, to talk to NPC B, then come back to NPC C. Each day, same thing, and same NPCs. So I quit that one rather quickly.

I find the tutorial in EQ to be the best one of the 5 or so MMOs I have played. Walks you through the basics of the game. You get armor and weapons to. Then you exit and do some other things.

edit:

The two closest cons are board games, comics, and CosPlay. One has a, yes one, game session of 5e ad&d. My opinion is that by the time we go over the rules, it will be time for me to do something else. My sister and I will likely just wear hall costumes and chat with people. I'm really too tired anymore to game long hours.
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Last edited by JimMarn; June 21st, 2018 at 05:33 PM.. Reason: info
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  #38  
Old June 21st, 2018, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terquem View Post
I don't mean to be rude or disparaging of your opinions, but I think, in the long run, what might be most relevant is that Games and Game Design hasn't change all that much, whereas gamers, as they grow older, change a great deal.
No doubt, and a few weeks back at Kublacon I played CW essentially blindfolded. I actually should have won that game because I didn't apply my spoilers and airdam D modifier when I was making a tight turn at high speed, and wound up rolling on Crash Table 1.

But I didn't find myself all angsty and personally offended that I had screwed up, and where the year before I saw over a dozen players with a Steve Jackson MIB doing an off road session (mostly teens and college age types) I didn't feel like an old man playing a child's game.

I think the other aspect was the genre. There's more sort of Victorian Era to pre Second World War adventure games out there now. I may have mentioned this, but someone at SJGames mentioned that scifi seems to have peaked in the 80s, and now you have what I mentioned, superhero stuff (which is ostensibly a different flavor of scifi) and classic Americanized European sword and sorcery fantasy.

So yeah, I'm waxing nostalgia here, but I was curious as to what people's opinions were.

If you're a hack-and-slash D&D player, then I'm curious how you're still interested in Traveller. I've done EQ way back around 2000 or 1998, and it was just filled with foul mouthed punks, over loaded servers, and bands of players waiting to take their turn at killing some AI. I just couldn't take it anymore.

I stuck with it to level up my character so we could go on serious adventures, but it's like there weren't any, and everywhere you went, it was crowded with tons of players. So that quest that ideally had you and four or five other people against armies of AI in the wilds, is suddenly a carnival of waiting to take your turn to kill that AI. But, whatever. People like that kind of this, so big deal.

I get a strong sense that I'll never play Traveller again, or any other serious RP or warsims given my situation. But, again, whatever, I'm kind of curious what other people think about current games.
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  #39  
Old June 21st, 2018, 08:34 PM
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I have played WoW. It just seemed to me to be more grouping than solo.
I can't contrast WoW to much anything else. Only other similar game I played was D&D Online when it was in beta, and that didn't last more than an hour. I hated that.

Most folks find WoW very casual/solo friendly. When it came out, one of it's targets was folks who found the demands of EQ too daunting.

Quote:
I find the tutorial in EQ to be the best one of the 5 or so MMOs I have played.
Early WoW had a very gentle introduction. No real formal tutorial per se (after the first couple of quests), but just experientially.

First mobs you had to attack first. Then you encounter hostile mobs, but just one at a time. Later, you get into close quarters, dealing with more than one mob at a time. As you level you soon experience packs, and have to figure out things like local crowd control, and other tactics to not get repeatedly killed. I always thought it was pretty elegant how they introduced the complexities of the game without grabbing your hand and dragging you through things.

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One has a, yes one, game session of 5e ad&d. My opinion is that by the time we go over the rules, it will be time for me to do something else.
It is not at all unreasonable for a convention setting to expect players to come reasonably prepared and knowledgable about what they're about to play. My issue with out session was that, honestly, the DM knows the rules, the DM interprets the rules, the DM can CHANGE the rules. And, at a basic level, the "Game" is translating character actions in to mechanics. And rather than reading pages of rules about how far you can move, how fast you can move, how heavy your axe is, or how it hits, HE can tell me all of that. HE can tell me the 5 things I need to know to close and beat on a kobold with an axe. He can do that quickly, elegantly, at a high level and we can move on. We're not a complicated board game here, we're beating up monsters, saving damsels, and looting treasure. The details can come later.

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Originally Posted by Blue Ghost View Post
No doubt, and a few weeks back at Kublacon I played CW essentially blindfolded. I actually should have won that game because I didn't apply my spoilers and airdam D modifier when I was making a tight turn at high speed, and wound up rolling on Crash Table 1.
I was notorious for forgetting stuff in games, losing opportunities, forgetting helpful modifiers (my opponents were always keen on ensuring I was applying all the NEGATIVE modifiers, you can be sure of that!).

But remember, half of "gameplay" is "play". The game should be fun whether you use the modifier or don't. In SFB for example, I was always forgetting phasers and such. NBD.

Quote:
If you're a hack-and-slash D&D player, then I'm curious how you're still interested in Traveller.
Traveller can be as cinematic as you want it. it doesn't all have to be Imperial politics and microeconomics. Always time to assault the space station and blast your way through doors with RAM grenades.

Quote:
I've done EQ way back around 2000 or 1998, and it was just filled with foul mouthed punks, over loaded servers, and bands of players waiting to take their turn at killing some AI. I just couldn't take it anymore.

I stuck with it to level up my character so we could go on serious adventures, but it's like there weren't any, and everywhere you went, it was crowded with tons of players. So that quest that ideally had you and four or five other people against armies of AI in the wilds, is suddenly a carnival of waiting to take your turn to kill that AI. But, whatever. People like that kind of this, so big deal.
Different for different folks. The shenanigans don't bother me that much, and are mostly overstated (in my experience in WoW). I accept that "it's not my game", it's not a Single Player RP game on my schedule. That there's other folks there, with their own agendas. WoW has made many changes over the years to make it even easier (for example in the last expansion, you can now have more than one player attack the same monster and both get credit, even if they're not grouped at all).

But, as evidence, after all the years I've been on, I only have 1 person on my ignore list to keep them out of the general, public chat. (I have "reported" people, that blocks them from me for 24 hours -- usually more than enough, but even that is very rare today).

Often as not, you're lucky anyone says anything at all nowadays.
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  #40  
Old June 21st, 2018, 09:25 PM
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Apparently, many of the loud mouth people left EQ for other games. Some are still there, but /ignore works well.

The game world has 24 expansions now. One expansion per year, and each expac has all previous expacs included. So the launcher just downloads what you don't have.

Due to the much larger game area, until your characters get up around level 95, I can game and not see another player's character. There are teleport books on pedistals, called POK books, that cover most of the game planet. And hints/info on how to get places and defeat the monsters is no longer blocked by Daybreak in the forums.

Daybreak ? Yes, about 3 or 4 years ago EQ/EQ II, and another one, broke away from Sony and have thier own company now. Some of the same people as developers, etc.

EQ is an 8.5 gigabyte download. EQ II downloads partially, and finishes downloading while you game.

Both have free 2 play. And you can pay per month to. I prefer EQ, but since they don't patch on the same day I can then play EQ II. In 2, Norrath is a bunch of continents and islands. Smaller than the continents in EQ.

Yes, I enjoy them. I still want to play Traveller some day.
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