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  #11  
Old February 15th, 2008, 05:58 PM
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Do you have any good points to MGT? For the most part I think Traveller is just a doomed RPG, being too complex for most RPG gamers. When ever I tried to get people to play Traveller they just roll there eye’s. I think there is a belief that Traveller is a game where you need and advanced degree in the Sciences to be able to understand it or it is an RPG for the GROGNARD goon’s.

The only thing I was hoping for in a new version of Traveller was a simpler version of the game, easier to play etc… Maybe this is what Mongoose was tiring to accomplish (don’t know have not read any of the rules). I was hoping for a version the Traveller that would appeal to more gamers, so at least in part it would be easier for me to find a traveler game to play in. It’s kind of sad that I can find more people to play Wizards of the Cost Star War (which I will never play) than Traveller.
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  #12  
Old February 15th, 2008, 06:03 PM
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I just discovered that I've been playing the system incorrectly, at least regarding combat. Unfortunately, playing it correctly does not improve the system.

I thought that when you conducted a combat action, you subtracted the timing die result from your initiative die. However, your timing die becomes your new initiative.

Criticisms:

1. Most combat actions will have little effect on your initiative, as long as you succeed at them. As long as your timing die is at least a 4, you'll be able to shoot each round (you get a +2 to initiative before the combat phase of each round).

2. Since the the T/E system skews high, you are highly likely to get a 4+ on the timing die on a successful. On a successful unmodified roll, there's an 80% chance of each die being a 4+.

3. The net effect of this will be to encourage standing still (or moving only 1.5 meters) and blazing away. Figures who choose to use movement will cripple themselves for several turns, while figures that take easy shots will be able to shoot every turn. As someone who prefers lots of movement in his games, this is not a Good Thing.

4. This also makes automatic fire very foolish. Since you are very likely to get a 2- for timing on an autofire attack (98% chance on auto-4 roll), using an automatic weapon once can paralyze you for two additional rounds (you roll a 2 or less for timing; thus you can't fire for 2 turns). Ironically, this means that over a 3 turn span, most autoweapons will make the same number of attacks as a single shot weapon. Somehow, this seems less than optimum to me. (Making the best die the autofire timing die will make autofire overwhelming). Again, I can't believe that this rule was playtested...

5. The system requires two completely different mechanics to handle the effect of combat and noncombat actions on initiative. This increases the fiddly component.

6. The idea of being frozen for 2 rounds while everyone else runs around doing stuff is deeply annoying, for a couple of reasons:

a. It poorly models real combat (or hollywood combat for that matter);

b. I don't like games where unluckly players (or ones stupid enough to use automatic weapons) can spend 2/3 of their time unable to shoot.

7. I am also skeptical of the distinction between a combat action and a noncombat action. It seems illogical that I can run anytime I please, but I can't throw a rock except when I have initiative 6. Apparently, I can type on the computer at any initiative point, but I can't push a button to fire a missile except when I have initiative 6.
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  #13  
Old February 15th, 2008, 06:12 PM
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If you don't like his posts, don't read them. Ignore them.

If you think there are too many negative MGT posts, start positive ones of your own.

If you think a post is out of line report it.

What you don't do is come into the thread and tell the OP to shut up.
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  #14  
Old February 15th, 2008, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tragin View Post
Do you have any good points to MGT?
I liked the starship design system. But robject pointed out that most of the things I liked were rules written by MWM. After seeing a draft of MWM's rules, I do think that MGT did a good job of streamlining them.

The character generation system is okay, although the survival rolls are way too high for military careers.

I've not tackled the world generation and animal/encounter stuff yet. EDG's stuff looks interesting, but it doesn't look like it's gonna get implemented in MGT.

Quote:
For the most part I think Traveller is just a doomed RPG, being too complex for most RPG gamers.
And that is the cryin' shame of it all. There's nothing inherently complex about Traveller. Classic Traveller is especially easy to play and run, though it needs a better "to hit" and armor/damage mechanics. As well as a tech update and more weapons. Ironically, most of those pieces are already out there, just waiting to be picked up.

The MGT character generation system, the MGT starship design system, a variant of High Guard combat system that doesn't require moving counters on a board (or miniatures on a table), and the T4 armor/damage system could easily replace comparable CT subsystems and the result would be a simple, elegant and fun game.

I don't care at all for the d20 system, so I don't play T20. But I did appreciate the obvious affection for Traveller shown by its designers. Mongoose should have looked at T20 as an example of how to do a Traveller remake right.

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When ever I tried to get people to play Traveller they just roll there eye’s.
IMHO, MGT will confirm the stereotype of Traveller as an unplayable, absurdly fussy mess, suitable only for long time Traveller fans. Of course the bitter irony is that some of the most vocal critics of MGT are "long time Traveller fans".

Quote:
I think there is a belief that Traveller is a game where you need and advanced degree in the Sciences to be able to understand it or it is an RPG for the GROGNARD goon’s.
Yep. And MGT will do nothing to change that belief.

Quote:
The only thing I was hoping for in a new version of Traveller was a simpler version of the game, easier to play etc… Maybe this is what Mongoose was tiring to accomplish (don’t know have not read any of the rules).
Given that their core task and combat systems are far more fiddly and involved than most previous Traveller systems, I can't believe that this was actually a design goal (no matter what they claim). I can't see how any reasonable person could look at the combat system (and the defective starship combat system) and see a simplified version of Traveller.

[/quote]I was hoping for a version the Traveller that would appeal to more gamers, so at least in part it would be easier for me to find a traveler game to play in. It’s kind of sad that I can find more people to play Wizards of the Cost Star War (which I will never play) than Traveller.[/QUOTE]

Well, you might try T20. If it's too complex, strip it down to look more like Star Wars.

Unless of course, you don't want to run a d20 game.

Fear not though. When the new version of Chaosium's "Basic Roleplaying" comes out, I'll probably do an unofficial Traveller variant. That system is very simple and elegant (and I'd respect that in any variant I did).

In the meantime, try running Classic Traveller with the damage and armor rules from T4 and Book 2 and Supplement 4 characters only. If you want a more modern character generation system, I produced one that would let you design your character. It's working well in my current Traveller campaign.

My thoughts on converting T4 combat system to CT: http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Dis...ad.php?t=14974

My alternate CT character generation system:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Dis...ad.php?t=14819

YMMV of course.

Oh, to make CT weapons sexier, give them twice as much ammunition at TL 9+ and tell the players they fire caseless rounds. Also, sex up the weapon names. It's not a Rifle, it's a Heavy Pulse Rifle. It's not a Carbine, it's a Light Pulse Rifle or an Assault Carbine. Almost any weapon can be sexed up by adding "Assault", "Combat", "Battle", "Heavy", "Tactical", "Medium", "Light", etc. to its name. It isn't a revolver, its a Heavy Assault Revolver.

Last edited by tbeard1999; February 15th, 2008 at 07:23 PM..
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  #15  
Old February 15th, 2008, 06:40 PM
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Why not just publish your rules as say: "Imperial Tales". To me, all the arguments you've put up seem to just be saying: you ought to be using my rules instead, and you're idiots for not seeing that my rules are better.

If you think they're better, publish them. You won't have the Traveller brand to go with them, but you could publish them as a generic hard Sci-Fi RPG.

Of course, I wouldn't buy those either ... I happen to not like Classic Traveller. Call me a heretic if you like, but that's the way it is. All the CT and MT books I've bought have purely been for background, not rules. Who knows, maybe I'll buy MGT books for the same reason, but I'll be skipping the main rulebook.
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  #16  
Old February 15th, 2008, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tragin View Post
The only thing I was hoping for in a new version of Traveller was a simpler version of the game, easier to play etc…
Ever tried Classic Traveller?
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  #17  
Old February 15th, 2008, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valarian View Post
To me, all the arguments you've put up seem to just be saying: you ought to be using my rules instead, and you're idiots for not seeing that my rules are better.
Hmm. Are you reading the same TBeard posts I am?

He hasn't been saying, "Play my system" at all. He's only been saying, "MGT is pretty much crap, right behind T4."

I think you're reacting to the negativity (due to his dislike of MGT) in his posts.
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Old February 15th, 2008, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supplement Four View Post
I think you're reacting to the negativity (due to his dislike of MGT) in his posts.
Possibly, but it's been a lot of negativity. Both here and on the Mongoose boards. I've really just had enough of the griping. Yes, he doesn't like the rules. Fine. Leave it at that.

Personally, I looked at the play test documents, read the rules and decided that they weren't for me. Personally, I think Mongoose should've gone their own way with the rules and not tried so hard to fit with what had gone before. But, they're not my rules, it's not my design. I'll play Traveller another way.
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  #19  
Old February 15th, 2008, 07:09 PM
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I suppose what I'm really saying is ... enough already, time to shut up now.
Okay, I've received a warning for the above quote so I'll leave this now. Poor choice of words maybe: "time to leave it" may have been more polite. I've said my peace, and I'll leave it at that.
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  #20  
Old February 15th, 2008, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valarian View Post
Why not just publish your rules as say: "Imperial Tales".
Well, I'd do that if I had any rules that were developed enough that I'd be comfortable selling them. Unlike some game companies, rules that I publish have to be pretty thoroughly tested and the kinks and defects resolved.

Quote:
To me, all the arguments you've put up seem to just be saying: you ought to be using my rules instead, and you're idiots for not seeing that my rules are better.
Well, I'd be lying if I didn't admit that I'm pretty certain that I could do a better job revising and updating Traveller than Mongoose is doing. But that's pretty faint praise, really. See, most of the work is already done; it's really just a matter of assembling it, and smoothing out defects and resolving contradictions. So I imagine that there's a pretty good sized population of folks out there who could do it.

In addition, my real job usually keeps me from spending much time on game design (I've had a lull lately as you can tell).

But I don't think that you can find any examples of me comparing MGT to my own rules or systems. Though I have unfavorably compared their design philosophy and playtesting to how I did it.

Ironically, I've carefully avoided such comparisons, because I wanted to avoid accusations like the one you just made.

And while I'm almost tempted to take a crack at a full blown Traveller-esque system, it would be an obviously derivative work. I don't think that I'd come up with a noticeably better starship design system, so I'd probably copy Traveller's system. I'm happy with CT's world generation and animal generation systems, so I'd duplicate them. At the end of the day, it would be Traveller, with my character generation system and combat system, no matter what I called it. So I just don't see the benefit.

Quote:
If you think they're better, publish them. You won't have the Traveller brand to go with them, but you could publish them as a generic hard Sci-Fi RPG.
Maybe one day.

Right now, I am trying to get A Fistful of TOWs 3 out.

Quote:
Of course, I wouldn't buy those either ... I happen to not like Classic Traveller. Call me a heretic if you like, but that's the way it is. All the CT and MT books I've bought have purely been for background, not rules. Who knows, maybe I'll buy MGT books for the same reason, but I'll be skipping the main rulebook.
So what rules do you use?

FWIW, I don't see anything wrong with not using CT or MT rules. For a long time, I played Traveller using The Fantasy Trip (see my TFT website for rules). And as GURPS Traveller, TNE and T20 showed, Traveller can be played with a broad range of RPG systems.

I currently play a modified CT ruleset out of nostalgia (I started playing CT in 1980 at the age of 14).

And I *have* designed a number of RPGs; just none of them were good enough for me to want to sell them. My players liked most of them just fine, but at the end of the day, I didn't feel that they were markedly superior to the best games out there. (Most *were* as good as many commercial games; just not better than the best in their genre).

If I'm gonna produce a game and try to sell it, it will be better than the competition, at least in my opinion. (Why else do it? You darn sure ain't gonna get rich designing games). See my rules set A Fistful of TOWs 2 for an example of what I consider to be a game worth publishing.

Now, in a bizarre example of parallel evolution, I designed a sci-fi RPG about 5 years ago that contained mechanics nearly identical to the Serenity RPG. My game predated Serenity by years, but since I never made it available outside my circle of friends, there's no way Serenity could be a ripoff. We played it for about a year and it played well.

And I've designed dozens (?) of wargames. Some were awful and will *never* see the light of day. Most of the remainder were distributed free in PDF format, if I felt that they were free of serious system defects. I once had a website where they could be downloaded. I changed ISPs and never got around to redoing the site. I don't know how much stock you can put in random comments, but my wargame club has always enjoyed my games and most comments from players who downloaded them have been extremely positive. But as noted, there are more than a few designs that will never see the light of day...

One day, when I'm rich, I'll probably start or buy a game company <sigh>.

Last edited by tbeard1999; February 15th, 2008 at 07:12 PM..
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