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  #31  
Old May 19th, 2019, 07:08 PM
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Let me jump into the discussion with a specific proposal.

Page 120 of the SRD currently states:
Quote:
A metric ton of hydrogen measures approximately 13.5 cubic meters, which is rounded to 14 cubic meters for ease of calculations. When drawing floor plans or maps of ships, each square measuring 1.5 meters by 1.5 meters, to a height of 3m up from the floor, represents half a ton.
I respectfully suggest the following alternative wording:
Quote:
A metric ton of hydrogen measures approximately 14.1 cubic meters, which is rounded to 14 cubic meters for ease of calculations. When drawing floor plans or maps of ships, each square measuring 1.5 meters by 1.5 meters, to a height of 3m up from the floor, represents half a ton. Two squares measure 13.5 cubic meters or approximately one displacement ton.
This change effects nothing in the actual design sequence, it simply rewords the explanation of a displacement ton to be more factually accurate. This is clearly not an urgently needed change, just a simple suggestion to polish the prose whenever you get around to an update of the SRD to incorporate any significant corrections.
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  #32  
Old May 19th, 2019, 07:30 PM
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Those readers that live outside the USA and are probably more comfortable with Metric units than Imperial measures, are advised to avert their eyes and read no further. What follows is for my fellow luddites that cling to the foot, the pound and the inch.

TimeRover made a comment on dTons and deckplans that is worth repeating.

1 displacement ton (dTon) is close enough to 500 cubic feet to ignore the small fraction of a percent difference. That means that 1000 cubic feet (a 10'x10'x10' cube) is equal to 2 dTons.

So how big is that Starship you want to build in non-metric units?
Well, let’s say you want a 200 dTon ship (Free Trader size).
200 dT x 500 cu.ft/dT = 100,000 cubic feet.
100,000 cu.ft. / 10’ ceilings = 10,000 square feet.

So a ballpark starting point for the rough size of the ship is ...
Single deck ship = 10,000 sq.ft. per deck = 10’x100’x100’ or 10’x50’x200’
Two deck ship = 5,000 sq.ft. per deck = 20’x50’x100’
Three deck ship = 3,333 sq.ft. per deck = 30’x33’x100’

When it comes to working on deckplans, the 1.5mx1.5m floor grid can be treated as a 5’x5’ floor grid with each square still equal to half a dTon.

So if you find it hard to visualize in metric, 500 cu.ft per dTon and 5’ squares works out the same and may help you get a feel for the sizes.

Last edited by atpollard; May 20th, 2019 at 05:01 PM..
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  #33  
Old May 19th, 2019, 07:47 PM
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5' is 1.524 metres, so a 5' square is pretty close to a 1.5m square...
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  #34  
Old May 19th, 2019, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
Basically, that says that if you add Bonded Superdense Armor twice to a 1000 displacement ton hull, the armor takes up 100 tons of the ships volume. How is that possible? It would mean adding, in English units, about 50,000 cubic feet of armor to the ship. Standard steel armor weighs about 480 per cubic foot. I assume that Superdense means an armor twice as dense as steel, so 960 pounds per cubic foot. That amounts to 24,000 short tons (a short ton is equal to 2,000 pounds) of armor to the ship. That is on par with the total armor carried by the Japanese Battleship Yamato. And all that mass of armor only increases the cost of the hull by a 100% and supplies an armor protection of 12.
There is some handwave and some simplification for playability and some apples-to-oranges involved here. How many nuclear missile strikes could the Yamamoto absorb before it was “mission killed”? But mostly, how is any of this errata for the SRD? A topic on the meaning of Armor would be fun, but this is not it.


Quote:
Do your deck plans reflect that loss of all of that internal space to armor?
Probably not errata, but if the ship was designed correctly, then the dtonnage was allocated and the dTons allocated to armor would not be drawn as living quarters or bridge “squares” since each had its own tonnage allocation that was translated into deck squares (plus or minus 10%).

Quote:
Is there any reflection on the addition of all of that mass in your Maneuver Drive requirements? All of that mass has to be accelerated in some manner.
Meaningless for NON REACTION drives (grav drives) which operate by volume rather than mass. For REACTION drives, mass calculations are simplified for playability. That is just a fact of the game. This, too, does not seem like an errata in the SRD, but something that should have a topic to discuss the effect of Mass on Reaction Drives.

Quote:
Then there is all of the framing and supporting structure within the ship to support that massive weight.
Not errata, but you have answered your own question concerning the volume of all that Armor added to the ship. If the volume of the Armor includes internal bracing, then your earlier calculation has overestimated the volume and weight of the armored shell.

Quote:
Now, if this ship was a nautical vessel, 1000 dTons will equate to about 14,000 displacement tons, based on about 14 cubic meters per dTon. One cubic meter of water is equal to 1 metric ton. The ship now weighs 24,000 short tons or 21,772 metric tons plus whatever the rest of the ship weighs. It promptly sinks, as it weighs far more than the water it displaces. Has anyone bothered to stop and think about what that rule statement implies?
Most tanks don’t float either. You will need to be more specific about what wording in the SRD needs correction and what specifically is wrong with it. If you have a specific real world ship you are attempting to create, post it in a topic and let’s see what can be done with the rules to simulate that design. It may reveal errata, but it is not errata all by itself.

You created this topic to focus on errata for the SRD.
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  #35  
Old May 19th, 2019, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
Most tanks don’t float either. You will need to be more specific about what wording in the SRD needs correction and what specifically is wrong with it. If you have a specific real world ship you are attempting to create, post it in a topic and let’s see what can be done with the rules to simulate that design. It may reveal errata, but it is not errata all by itself.

You created this topic to focus on errata for the SRD.
Although you are not a moderator, I know when I am being told to shut up.

I will keep working on my own version of the rules, and no longer worry about the Cepheus Engine System Reference Document or anything connected to it.
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  #36  
Old May 19th, 2019, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
Although you are not a moderator, I know when I am being told to shut up.

I will keep working on my own version of the rules, and no longer worry about the Cepheus Engine System Reference Document or anything connected to it.
He IS a moderator.
That is what the indicates.

You are not being told to, as you inelegantly put it, "shut up." You are being asked by him as a thread participant to stay on topic and focus on actual errata, and justify what is being suggested.

THen again, for actual CE errata, Jason Kemp the only one who actually gets to decide what the official errata is. We can discuss and suggest, but in the end, CE is Jason's.

If you were being asked to "shut up", it would be in moderator text, and/or would be done in a formal warning. Not something that happens much.
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  #37  
Old May 20th, 2019, 02:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
He IS a moderator.
That is what the indicates.

You are not being told to, as you inelegantly put it, "shut up." You are being asked by him as a thread participant to stay on topic and focus on actual errata, and justify what is being suggested.

THen again, for actual CE errata, Jason Kemp the only one who actually gets to decide what the official errata is. We can discuss and suggest, but in the end, CE is Jason's.

If you were being asked to "shut up", it would be in moderator text, and/or would be done in a formal warning. Not something that happens much.
I will quit asking questions then.
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  #38  
Old May 20th, 2019, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
Although you are not a moderator, I know when I am being told to shut up.

I will keep working on my own version of the rules, and no longer worry about the Cepheus Engine System Reference Document or anything connected to it.
Hey TR.
Just for the record, I was just posting as a user and pointing out that a lot of your discussion was not errata (wording in the SRD that needed to be changed or clarified) as much as it was just general questions about using the SRD to design a Water Ship (as distinct from a starship). By placing the questions in a topic on errata, it creates the impression that something is broken when you have not defined exactly what it is that is broken.

That can drive some people crazy. (Fortunately, I have a double dose of mellow about anything not belonging in The Pit ... so I infrequently post in the Pit).

I would just really like (as one gearhead to another) a chance to discuss the details of designing a "Cruiser" or "Battleship" in a topic dedicated to that. Then we can check out the rules and ask questions about the nuts and bolts and get input that will be helpful to lots of people. From there we can see if there really are any "broken" rules or alternative rules that might be worth suggesting to the SRD publisher.

So if you have one specific ship in mind, post some real world stats on a new topic and let's see how close we can get with the rules.

[As an aside, the points that you raised that I didn't mention, I thought were legitimate questions to ask concerning errata. It should describe the additional boost needed for higher Gee takeoffs somewhere in the rules.]
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  #39  
Old May 21st, 2019, 12:52 AM
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That's pretty much expected and assigned role(s) and performance.

By default, a battleship is expected to stand in the line of battle and duke it out, while a cruiser is a multirole ship that's cheaper and easier to maintain in service, that can take on everything but a battleship.
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