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  #31  
Old February 17th, 2018, 02:27 PM
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The first firmpoint should be given at 10 Dt, not 1 Dt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by p276
Any Pod or small craft Hull (less than 100 tons) may have one Firmpoint per 35 tons. The first Firmpoint may be installed on a Pod or Subhull between 10 and 35 tons.
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  #32  
Old February 17th, 2018, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
Armour: Defining a anti-layer add TL once more to the AV of the layer. Shoudn't.

Armour: Anti-Blast layer multiplies BF by 10, when it should add TL×10?

Armour: Anti-EMP layer multiplies EMP by 10, when it should add TL×10?

Armour: Anti-Kinetic layer multiplies Pen by 10, when it should add TL×100 (or TL×10)?

Armour: Anti-Rad layer multiplies Pen by 10, when it should add TL×100 (or TL×10)?

The armour tables on p293 are just a specialisation of the tables on p292, and not valid for all armour types? Multiplier on p293 is TL multiplier?
The rules would benefit from more examples to clarify exactly how things work. Currently, it leaves too many things open to interpretation.

If you don't add AV = TL for an anti-layer, then what is the purpose of the AV= line for anti-layers on page 292?

See this post on the multipliers, which are indeed xTL:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Dis...mor#post555527

So my interpretation is TL x 10 x 10, not TL x 10 + TL x 10
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  #33  
Old February 17th, 2018, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agorski View Post
The rules would benefit from more examples to clarify exactly how things work. Currently, it leaves too many things open to interpretation.
Like everything else...
Are there any "official" ship designs?


Quote:
Originally Posted by agorski View Post
If you don't add AV = TL for an anti-layer, then what is the purpose of the AV= line for anti-layers on page 292?
The default for a layer, i.e. Plate?


Quote:
Originally Posted by agorski View Post
See this post on the multipliers, which are indeed xTL:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Dis...mor#post555527

So my interpretation is TL x 10 x 10, not TL x 10 + TL x 10
I made a completely different interpretation...

I started here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by p293
Layers. Armor is applied in Layers. Each Layer is approximately 4% of the total tonnage of the Hull.
Tech Level. Armor Value AV= for a Layer is the Tech Level of the ship (potentially modified by Stage Effects).
Anti-layers protect against specific threats.
The type of armour sets the AV of the layer, the anti-type adds some extra protection against that specific damage.

Note the example on p293:
Quote:
For example, on a 100-ton Configuration-S ship, Polymer Armor is Base TL=10. It can be installed on a TL-8 Hull as Prototype Polymer. Layer1 imposes no additional tons; AV= (8-4=) 4. Layer2 is double tonnage (=4 x 2)= 8 tons and has AV=4.
I interpret that as armour type sets the AV (regardless of anti-layer).


I see right now that we have both probably misinterpreted armour stages...

Quote:
Originally Posted by p277-8
Tech Level. Armor Value AV= for a Layer is ship Tech Level (potentially modifiable). Tech Level Stage Effects may be necessary to allow Armor at less than its Base TL.
Anti-layers provide additional protection against specific threats. Anti-Layers are specialized versions of the ship’s Armor. A TL-12 ship with Structure= Plate has Armor Layers built with Plate. It has a base AV= 12. One or more Layers can be designated Anti-Blast, which confers a multiplier x10 (AV= 100) [sic 120?] against Blast, Bullet or Frag. Its AV against other attacks remains the same.
So, an anti-layer provides no extra basic AV.
An anti-layer multiplies AV against that particular damage type by 10 (possibly 100 vs Pen, Rad).
All layers have extra protection against Heat and Pressure (Anti-layer table p293).
The TL of the armour is ship's TL modified by Stage. So at TL-8 we can use Prototype Polymer (TL-10), consequently at TL-12 we can use Ultimate Plate with base AV = 8 + Mod.

Example: TL-12 ship. Structure: Plate. Armour: Two layers of Ultimate Plate, one layer with Anti-Blast. Each layer has AV = 8 + Mod = 12 (1200 vs Heat, 120 vs Pres), the anti-layer has AV vs BF = 120, for a total of AV = 24 (132 vs BF, 2400 vs Heat, 240 vs Pres).

This actually explains all tables on p292 - 3, they try to summarise layer and anti-layer at the same time in all the tables, to everyone's confusion.
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  #34  
Old February 19th, 2018, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
The first firmpoint should be given at 10 Dt, not 1 Dt.
Confirmed.
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  #35  
Old February 20th, 2018, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
So, an anti-layer provides no extra basic AV.
Sorry, I will flog this dead horse once more...

In the Patrol Corvette design (T5.00?) by robject (at http://traveller5.net/tools/ships/...Patrol Corvette.html) we find:
Code:
    16      AV=24. 2 Kinetic Plate             0
Two layers of TL-12 Plate armour with anti-layer Kinetic gives AV = 2 × 12 = 24. No extra basic AV for the anti-layers.
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  #36  
Old February 20th, 2018, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
Armour: Defining a anti-layer add TL once more to the AV of the layer. Shoudn't.
OK, I'm going to make this change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
Armour: Anti-Blast layer multiplies BF by 10, when it should add TL×10?
So for each layer, BF = TL x 10, unless it has Anti-Blast, in which case BF = (TL x 10) + (TL x 10) for that layer. Sum up all the BF values for all the layers to get the total BF. Agreed?

Similarly for the other anti-layer types.
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Last edited by agorski; February 20th, 2018 at 05:41 PM..
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  #37  
Old February 20th, 2018, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
Example: TL-12 ship. Structure: Plate. Armour: Two layers of Ultimate Plate, one layer with Anti-Blast. Each layer has AV = 8 + Mod = 12 (1200 vs Heat, 120 vs Pres), the anti-layer has AV vs BF = 120, for a total of AV = 24 (132 vs BF, 2400 vs Heat, 240 vs Pres).
Plate AV = TL, modified by Stage.

Each Plate layer has a BF = TL x 10. The one layer with Anti-Blast adds TL x 10 to its BF.

So I think you meant:

Quote:
Each layer has AV = 12 + Mod = 16 (1200 vs Heat, 120 vs Pres, 120 vs BF), the anti-layer has AV vs BF = 120, for a total of AV = 32 (360 vs BF, 2400 vs Heat, 240 vs Pres).
So are we agreed that Stage only modifies AV, and not any of the specific threats?
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  #38  
Old February 20th, 2018, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agorski View Post
Plate AV = TL, modified by Stage.
You are right, I was misled by my own invented logic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by agorski View Post
Each Plate layer has a BF = TL x 10. The one layer with Anti-Blast adds TL x 10 to its BF.
Possibly, but I believe not. I can certainly not prove you wrong...


Quote:
Originally Posted by agorski View Post
So are we agreed that Stage only modifies AV, and not any of the specific threats?
Possibly, but I believe not. I can certainly not prove you wrong...


I believe these tables tries to describe the same thing:
Table "Anti-layers", p293:

Table "Armor", p292:

Note that the values in these tables are exactly the same, but only if the higher protection is based on AV, not TL (see Shell and FeN).

Unfortunately for my argument p391 says "Multiply or divide versus base TL (not necessarily AV)." under a similar table.

Table "Anti-layers", p292:

This table describes the same thing, but differs in that it says ×100 for some anti-layers. Using 100 here will render Particle and Kinetic weapons totally ineffective, so I prefer 10 as in the other tables.

I believe the higher protection against BF is all the same and only for Anti-Blast.
I believe when the tables say "TL" they mean AV, since AV is by default equal to TL. Note that the rules say AV=TL in other places, even though that is not correct for all Structure types or Stages (Was it in T5.00?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by p278
A TL-12 ship with Structure= Plate has Armor Layers built with Plate. It has a base AV= 12. One or more Layers can be designated Anti-Blast, which confers a multiplier x10 (AV= 100) against Blast, Bullet or Frag. Its AV against other attacks remains the same.
Note AV vs BF is base AV multiplied by ten, not added. I guess they mean AV=120 vs BF, ten times base AV...

Quote:
Originally Posted by p390
AV-11 is x100 against Heat (which includes Beams, Lasers). A Laser attack inflicting 5D= 30 Hits reduces AV-11 from 1100 to 1070; round down
Quote:
Originally Posted by p392
The new Target has Plate Armor at TL-12. The new Attacker rolls Flux for hit Loca- tion = -1 near the ship center. Armor AV=12 (x100 against Burn, Beam, and Laser) [=Heat]. The Pulse Laser inflicts Hits= Mount Hits= 5D=1 2 3 4 5= 15. Armor at that location is reduced to 1200 -15= 1185 (reduced to 11, round down).
Note that base AV of the layer in question is reduced as multiplied AV is attacked. The relationship between AV and AV vs Heat is maintained.
(Other examples on p392 says other things, I don't think all of them can be correct.)


So, I believe a TL-12 Ultimate Plate has AV 16 ( 16 vs BF, ... ) and with a Anti-Blast layer is becomes AV 16 ( 160 vs BF, ... ) instead. I can't pretend this is clear or the only interpretation of the rules...
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  #39  
Old February 21st, 2018, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
So, I believe a TL-12 Ultimate Plate has AV 16 ( 16 vs BF, ... ) and with a Anti-Blast layer is becomes AV 16 ( 160 vs BF, ... ) instead.
Since Plate provides BF = TL x 10 according to the Armor table on pg. 292, I believe a TL-12 Ultimate Plate single layer has AV 16 (120 vs BF).

If we assume that an anti-layer value REPLACES the value of the normal armor for a specific threat then we end up with the same exact thing AV 16 (120 vs BF), since the Anti-Layers tables say that Anti-Blast provides TL x 10.

So, I'm going to assume that an anti-layer value ADDS to the value of the normal armor. AV 16 (240 vs BF).

I would think that Stage would effect specific threat values as well, but there's just no clear indication that this is intended or how it should work. As you say, if the specific threat value is really AV x 10 instead of TL x 10, then this happens automatically. But the tables clearly say TL x 10.

So unless someone else posts something definitive here that convinces me otherwise, I'm going to update my app based on my interpretation in the interest of getting a revision out with all the other fixes. I can always update again in the future with new armor rules.
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  #40  
Old February 24th, 2018, 02:21 PM
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Version 1.1 is out with the following changes:

* Fixed compartment costs not contributing to cost of ship
* Fixed drive Energy Points should not be affected by Stage. This also affects drive potential, so revisit your drive designs
* Fixed Analyzer/Sniffer and Jammer sensors cost
* Fixed Sound sensor tech level
* Fixed free Personal Air Locks now limited to one per full 100 tons of hull
* Fixed fuel fittings costs
* Fixed firmpoint allocation such that 10 tons is the minimum for a firmpoint
* Fixed armor anti-layers no longer contribute to AV and add their value to the base value of the armor layer
* Added Ergonomics to the Controls detail view on iPad
* Added Med Console and Counsellor crew accommodations
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