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  #11  
Old January 19th, 2019, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
I guess most (if not all) those worlds have some way of space station or any minor planet facility in the jump limit serving as main spaceport terminal, so that ships do not really rach the planet (unles they really need to) and can just load/unload caroes and passengers.
An interesting idea. TL and Starport class would play a part in this, I would guess.



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Originally Posted by Xerxeskingofking View Post
somebody made a list of mainworlds that are masked by their star in the Spinward Marches. its about 30 odd, and some of them are like 2 months from the jump limit at 1g.

given the non-linear way that travel time reduces at higher G rate, I am pretty sure some of those 66 days shadows would still be 7+ days deep even at 6g.
Incredible. That's got to have an effect on trade with that world.
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Old January 19th, 2019, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
I guess most (if not all) those worlds have some way of space station or any minor planet facility in the jump limit serving as main spaceport terminal, so that ships do not really rach the planet (unles they really need to) and can just load/unload caroes and passengers.

Once in this terminal, of course, fast shuttles take the cargoes or passengers to the planet.

Of course, this will afect their trade, as you need this extra time for any movement in/out the main planet.

Its effect on strategic plannning is also something to be counted on, as any fleet trying to attack th planet must stay in system for this long too, and risks being trapped there by reinformements arriving (as they may well need to stay over 2 weeks in system, time may be ample for them to be called and come). This also means that the population and SDBs have ample time ot ready for the incoming fleet...

If a system was close to the Extents, a deep-space transit point would be a very tempting target for the corsairs. If it's a low-tech agricultural world, they might not be able to afford the big SDB squadron they'd need to protect it.

This came up in our campaign, given the data we decided that the shipments were on big merchants, the sort they had in the Traveller Adventure, 3000 or 5000 tons displacement, and they had at least 2G drives, or else it really would take forever.

Not many Beowulfs stopped by.
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  #13  
Old January 19th, 2019, 12:38 PM
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Let's put Menorb as an example (as I find it an specially interesting case):

As shown in TTB:

Quote:
Menorb 0203 C652998 7 Poor No GG.
As given in the list Xerxeskingofthekings gave us, it would take over 66 days to reach the main world fro mthe jump limit. Also being next to the Extents, the corsair problem cannot be ruled off (as pointed by jcrocker), and single ships performing the long trip from jump point to mainworld could become tempting targets (OTOH, such a corsair would be trapped there for some time too, and even might need extra fuel if they go too far inside the gravity well)

For this post, I'll assume the rules given in CT:LLB5 (high guard) page 20 are in force:

Quote:
alternatively, a planetary navy may construct ships on i t s planet, using local resources, even if a shipyard is not present
With itss TL 7, it cannot build any quick spaceship 2G being the limit. So we can asume they have have those 2G ships used as shuttles if they want to keep any interstellar trade.

OTOH, Starport C allows for repairs to be done there. As you can hardly expect a damaged ship to make this long run, the only option, again IMHO, would be some kind of space station where they can be performed (to the best of TL7 capacity).

They can neither build (and having Poor trade clasification, probably cannot aford) a strong SDB fleet (as an aside, its SDB fleet is rated at 50 in FFW, larger than many other systems ).

So, my guess would be they organize large comboys, escorted by some SDB, to regularly make the run from the station to the mainworld, taking the passengers and cargoes. Each such comboys will tke several weeks of travel time. They may have some high speed shouttles for priority cargoes (or those passengers that can afford them).

Of course, this would add significant time (and probably costs) to any movement in/out Menorb, making it a true backwater system, despite its large pop.

Some side comments about this situation:
  • Maybe those added costs have something to do with the system being Poor (albeit the reasons for this trade classification are not related to them).
  • All those reasons should be a good reason to try to improve their TL, but at the same time a true indrance to this goal
  • Even assuming its TL was even lower in 623, the surprise invasión/coup performed then by the 4518th LIR (see SMC, page 38) would be unlikely to be possible if they need several weeks of travel from jump exit to mainworld...
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  #14  
Old January 19th, 2019, 03:29 PM
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Granted that having 'deep' systems would add to the travel time, but for the goods themselves, would that matter?

If it's an agricultural planet, they grow food. If you've got a couple of weeks to the jump point, none of it will be carried fresh, granted, but there's still frozen and concentrate and many other ways to get nutrition to the people that live on the high-pop worlds with trace atmospheres that can't grow oranges in sufficient quantity. If it's grains, then you can make it into flour or carry it bulk. Today grain ships from North America can take a few weeks to get to, say, Russia - but they allow for that, and it's just part of the logistics planning.

If it's manufactured goods from a high-tech world, you don't even have to worry about freshness in most cases. Medial radioactives have that issue, but then they wouldn't be made on that planet for interstellar export.

Since just-in-time manufacturing simply cannot happen across interstellar distances, it's mostly the ships and their mortgages that would come into play. If a world is one of the ones listed in a 'deep' system, they'll pretty much have to go through those regular runs that the various merchant rules imply exist, there won't be much or any of the tramp freighters hoping to get that fantastic load.

That's if there's something that the world produces that the rest of the Galaxy wants. If not, then it's probably a backwater.
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Old January 19th, 2019, 05:43 PM
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I like that term, "deep systems".

Another issue for deep systems are X-Boats. With no M-Drives, are there Scout stations outside the masking region to accommodate the major X-Boat Lanes?
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Old January 19th, 2019, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcrocker View Post
Granted that having 'deep' systems would add to the travel time, but for the goods themselves, would that matter?
Having to ship your cargo about 2-4 weeks more in normal space to reach the station for transhiping to a starship will surely have a cost...

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Originally Posted by Supplement Four View Post
Another issue for deep systems are X-Boats. With no M-Drives, are there Scout stations outside the masking region to accommodate the major X-Boat Lanes?
I guess they will be handled by those Space Stations I assume to be there. Some of them may be Scout managed, of course.
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Last edited by McPerth; January 29th, 2019 at 02:55 AM.. Reason: typos
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Old January 19th, 2019, 06:37 PM
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It will, but it is not something the original trading rules were designed with in mind.

The original trade rules are built around a ship spending one week in jump and one week landing from the 100D limit, unloading, finding a new cargo, finding passengers, refueling, (optional - seek out a patron and have an adventure), flying to the 100D limit.


If you add jump masking - which is not present in the original rules - then you also have to add an outersystem starport catering for the jump traffic in order to maintain the two week trade mini-game. This would rapidly become the 'mainworld' for intersteller traffic.

This implies a comprehensive system of insystem haulers, which are nice targets for pirates...

IISS x-boat stations and IN bases will have to be in the outsystem too, so if most of your interstellar infrastructure is out there that is where it makes sense for you to build your starport rather than space ports. It could be a completely artificial station or it could be a large asteroid/dwarf planet or the moon of a gas giant...
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Old January 28th, 2019, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McPerth View Post
I guess most (if not all) those worlds have some way of space station or any minor planet facility in the jump limit serving as main spaceport terminal, so that ships do not really rach the planet (unles they really need to) and can just load/unload caroes and passengers.

Once in this terminal, of course, fast shuttles take the cargoes or passengers to the planet.

Of course, this will afect their trade, as you need this extra time for any movement in/out the main planet.
IMTU (at least) these facilities are typically called "farports" and in addition to providing cargo/passenger way stations to/from the system mainworld, are frequently part of a "whistle stop" economic model for the locals that supports shipping moving through the system to other destinations, but which needs a quick local refuel and resupply point. A large, scheduled merchantman or liner can refuel and be back on its way to its endpoint destination much more quickly via a dedicated deep-space servicing facility than it can by crawling down and back up the star's -- or even a small GG's -- gravity well. Several days less that the one week a starship typically spends in port, for sure.

This in turn can save a big ship enough "down" time (i.e., any time in which it is not moving payload through Jumpspace for profit and is only running up overhead) to make the quick stopover economically attractive. In exchange, the local system can get otherwise-unlikely passenger, freight, and even Mail traffic on a regular basis, if they are willing to provide enough infrastructure locally.
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Old January 28th, 2019, 08:48 PM
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Once you start introducing the complications of stellar masking and adding Far Ports to deal with them, you might as well take the next step.

GT:Far Trader has a section for dealing with the idea of Jump Masking. It then proposes a solution, if you are willing to accept their large scale shipping.

LASH (Lighter aboard Ship) takes the idea of battle riders and apply them to the commercial shipping industry. Instead of having a far port where you dock, unload cargo, load cargo, then move on you have the cargo (and passengers) loaded on the ship via a non-jump capable lighters.

When the ship arrives in the system, you have a large non-jump capable fuel tanker with a collection of pilots. This catches the incoming ship and refuels the ship. The pilots load themselves into the various lighters which are staying in the system, and take off. The same thing happens with the cargo which is outgoing. Refueling happens in a few hours and the ship moves on.

The long time (week+) taken to fly to a world, load and unload cargo, and so forth is now avoided.

So there is no "far port", just a large, high-g Fuel Tanker, and a whole set of high-g cargo lighters. The cargo ships are mostly empty frames to hold the lighters, and can probably do without a maneuver drive, or at least a minimal one.

Yes, there is some cargo loss because the lighters all have a maneuver drive and power plant. But since the carrier ship can now make 15-20 more jumps per year, this will make up the difference.
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Old January 29th, 2019, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjoneslo View Post
Once you start introducing the complications of stellar masking and adding Far Ports to deal with them, you might as well take the next step.

GT:Far Trader has a section for dealing with the idea of Jump Masking. It then proposes a solution, if you are willing to accept their large scale shipping.

LASH (Lighter aboard Ship) takes the idea of battle riders and apply them to the commercial shipping industry. Instead of having a far port where you dock, unload cargo, load cargo, then move on you have the cargo (and passengers) loaded on the ship via a non-jump capable lighters.

When the ship arrives in the system, you have a large non-jump capable fuel tanker with a collection of pilots. This catches the incoming ship and refuels the ship. The pilots load themselves into the various lighters which are staying in the system, and take off. The same thing happens with the cargo which is outgoing. Refueling happens in a few hours and the ship moves on.

The long time (week+) taken to fly to a world, load and unload cargo, and so forth is now avoided.

So there is no "far port", just a large, high-g Fuel Tanker, and a whole set of high-g cargo lighters. The cargo ships are mostly empty frames to hold the lighters, and can probably do without a maneuver drive, or at least a minimal one.

Yes, there is some cargo loss because the lighters all have a maneuver drive and power plant. But since the carrier ship can now make 15-20 more jumps per year, this will make up the difference.

Basically, Heighliners from Dune.
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