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  #11  
Old February 7th, 2020, 06:08 AM
AnotherDilbert AnotherDilbert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
Nothing - the word turret is used to describe the weapon installation within/on the hull.
Doesn't really work.

The turret is a user-accessible place:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LBB2'81, p34
Any number of areas in the ship may be depressurized in the span of one turn (1,000 seconds). Repressurization requires one turn. In practice, the following parts of the ship may be individually pressure regulated: engineering section, ..., turrets (individually).
Quote:
Originally Posted by LBB2'81, p38
Gunner interact interfaces the expertise of the gunner in a specific turret to the hit probability of those lasers hitting the target.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
A laser would actually be a mirror array on the surface or recessed into the hull, a missile rack is internal with launch ports, as is the sandcaster.
Turrets are generic:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LBB2'81, p15
Turrets and weapons may be altered or retrofitted. For example, a single turret can have its pulse laser replaced by a beam laser when it becomes available; a single turret can be replaced by a triple turret when it becomes available. Weapons for installation in turrets include pulse and beam lasers, missile racks, and sandcasters.
A laser can easily be replaced with a missile launcher, without any change to the turret.
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  #12  
Old February 7th, 2020, 12:23 PM
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The fact remains that in CT LBB2 a turret of any capacity of weapon type takes up no volume.

When designing the hull you designate hardpoints and pay for them - no adding hardpoints at a later time.

You allocate 1t of internal space to the fire control for the weapon if you want to to arm your ship. The 'turret' is just a placeholder word to represent the weapon array itself.

The 'turret' - be it single, double or triple - takes up no volume of note inside or external to the hull.

As I correctly stated - the vast majority have completely the wrong mental image of what a 'turret' represents in CT and this error is compounded by artists also getting it wrong.
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Last edited by mike wightman; February 13th, 2020 at 12:45 PM..
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  #13  
Old February 7th, 2020, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
The 'turret' - be it single, double or triple - takes up no volume of note inside or external to the hull.
Not quite, it takes no space inside the hull.


What we know:

1) Turrets takes no space in the hull (LBB2 p15).
2) A gunner can be in the turret (LBB2 p38).
3) Turrets can be decompressed, hence they have space for people (LBB2 p34).

The only conclusion I can make is that turrets take space, but outside the hull. Presumably 1% or so is too little to impact drive performance.


Of course, LBB5 changes all of this...
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  #14  
Old February 7th, 2020, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
Not quite, it takes no space inside the hull.
Nor does it add any volume to the hull.


Quote:
What we know:

1) Turrets takes no space in the hull (LBB2 p15).
Nor add volume to the hull.
Quote:
2) A gunner can be in the turret (LBB2 p38).
the gunner can be in a 'turret' that is wholly within the hull
Quote:
3) Turrets can be decompressed, hence they have space for people (LBB2 p34).
space/volume that is within the hull volume.

Quote:
The only conclusion I can make is that turrets take space, but outside the hull. Presumably 1% or so is too little to impact drive performance.
The only conclusion I can make is that the 'turret' is not an external feature, as this would add to the hull volume.


Quote:
Of course, LBB5 changes all of this...
Not really - it reinforces that weapons provide no additional tonnage for the ship, but rather have to be accounted for from hull volume.
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  #15  
Old February 7th, 2020, 06:14 PM
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Since spaceship design is mostly abstract, adding turrets after the fact should add to the total tonnage.

That tends to throw off performance, especially of the jump drives.
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  #16  
Old February 7th, 2020, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Condottiere View Post
Since spaceship design is mostly abstract, adding turrets after the fact should add to the total tonnage.
To quote from 1977 Book 2, pp. 13–14, “Fire control equipment is also considered to be adjacent to the bridge. Each installed turret (see turrets, below) requires one ton of displacement committed for the installation of fire control equipment. Because turrets may well not be initially installed, space is often held in reserve to allow for later acquisition and installation.” As an example, the 1977 Type A free trader has two hardpoints in its 200 ton hull, with two tons of hull displacement reserved for the possible future installation of a turret in each hardpoint.
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  #17  
Old February 8th, 2020, 03:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Condottiere View Post
Since spaceship design is mostly abstract, adding turrets after the fact should add to the total tonnage.
But they don't - because what you think is a turret isn't what a LBB2 ship 'turret' is/are different things.

Quote:
That tends to throw off performance, especially of the jump drives.
Yup, and since the installation of a turret at a later date doesn't affect hull volume or jump drive performance the 'turret' is within the hull, as the hardpoint rule suggests. You have to designate the hardpoint during design at a cost of 0.1MCr and set aside one ton if you want to later fit fire control and a 'turret'.

As an aside - to see how this should work you need to turn to TNE and BL/FF&S where we get a design sequence that actually considers volume, surface area and mass. When the folks at SJG tried to imagine turrets as bolt on additions to the hull they broke their Vehicle design system, despite the sensible voice from the playtest crowd pointing out that it is fixed by considering the turret volume to be taken from the hull, not added to it.
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Last edited by mike wightman; February 8th, 2020 at 10:00 AM..
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  #18  
Old February 8th, 2020, 06:26 AM
AnotherDilbert AnotherDilbert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
the gunner can be in a 'turret' that is wholly within the hull
I thought we agreed that the turret does not take any space in the hull?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
The only conclusion I can make is that the 'turret' is not an external feature, as this would add to the hull volume.
So, a turret takes up space, but not inside and not outside, so in some Tardis-like extra-dimensional space?



Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
Not really - it reinforces that weapons provide no additional tonnage for the ship, but rather have to be accounted for from hull volume.
I would call it a change, when the extra Dt of fire control is removed, but the turret now takes 1-5 Dt. Hence we don't have to argue about whether a turret takes space, or where.
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  #19  
Old February 8th, 2020, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDilbert View Post
I thought we agreed that the turret does not take any space in the hull?
The 1 ton of fire control and the negligible tonnage 'turret' ar within the hull with a surface area component.
Quote:
So, a turret takes up space, but not inside and not outside, so in some Tardis-like extra-dimensional space?
I really don't think what I have written means what you think it means - the fire control which includes the crew workstation and the 'turret' is what takes up internal space.
Quote:
I would call it a change, when the extra Dt of fire control is removed, but the turret now takes 1-5 Dt. Hence we don't have to argue about whether a turret takes space, or where.
Exactly - they take up hull space, they don't add to hull volume.
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  #20  
Old February 8th, 2020, 11:59 AM
AnotherDilbert AnotherDilbert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
I really don't think what I have written means what you think it means - the fire control which includes the crew workstation and the 'turret' is what takes up internal space.
OK, sorry. So when the rules say "in the turret", you take that to mean "in the fire control"?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
Exactly - they take up hull space, they don't add to hull volume.
Quite, and turrets taking space is a clear change from LBB2?
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