Traveller Store CotI Features New Posts Mark Forums Read Register


Go Back TravellerRPG.com > Citizens of the Imperium > Other Versions of Traveller > Agent of the Imperium

Agent of the Imperium Discussion of Marc Miller's Novel, Agent of the Imperium.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old January 21st, 2017, 09:39 PM
Whipsnade's Avatar
Whipsnade Whipsnade is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Dover, New Hampshire, USA
Posts: 5,569
Gallery : 5
Visit Whipsnade's Blog
Whipsnade Citizen+Whipsnade Citizen+
Default Deyis II Redux

I've started this thread to avoid committing one of my all-too-usual sins; crapping up another thread.

While trying to help the Imperial Cartographer(1) check AotI against the Traveller Map, I realized that the AotI version of Deyis II is profoundly different from the previous version found in canon.

Deyis II is appears a few times in MT. An aside in Knightfall mentions the planet as hosting an access portal to the Primordial City's pocket universe. In MT's Folio Adventure 2 Outpost Alpha, which was distributed as part of the Referee's Gaming Kit, the planet is described in far more detail.

In MT, Deyis has a 70 year orbit meaning it "enjoys" a 35 year long summer and winter. Naturally, both flora and fauna have evolved various strategies like hibernation, robust eggs/seed pods, and the like. During the Ziru Sirka, the Vilani visited the world during it's winter, decided it wasn't worth settling, and moved on. During the Rule of Man, the Solomani visited during it's summer, decided to give it a try, and founded a colony that mysteriously failed.

After that, the world was was never settled and rarely visited. There is very little of commercial value while the life cycles of the flora and fauna make their use and/or transplantation very difficult.

During the Rebellion era, a party from Dulinor's faction vists the world to refuel and tangles with a scouting party from Lucan's faction. Most importantly, the party contacts a previously unsuspected sophont species; the Kebkh. (It also turns out the Kebkh were responsible for the failed Solomani colony.)

In AotI, Deyis orbit isn't mentioned. In 501 the planetary population is 94 million, roughly half human and half Kebkh. While the system was brought into the Imperium during the Second Century IE, it was settled far in the past as a Karand palace dating from the Second Millenium, -8000 to -7000 IE, exists.

Not only are the Kebkh known in AotI, they're integrated into the Imperium and enough are living off Deyis when that world was scrubbed in 501 that some are living on Reference in 620.

I can't see how the MT and AotI stories can be reconciled.

Finally, in the other thread Robject mentions that Our Absent Friend Don took an interest in Deyis II and the Kebkh with an eye towards "cleaning up" DGP's Primordials/Baddies from the Core suggestion. (There was an implied connection between the Primordials and Kebkh. IIRC, Mr. Fugate touched on the topic in his Q&A column in a MTJ issue.)

The Deyis II story in AotI may be how the Primordials/Baddies are removed from canon, much like how one of Strephon's diary entries buried IRIS.

All this could be bunk, of course, as I'm just a gray headed old fat man with too much time on his hands.


1 - Hi Inexorabletash!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old January 22nd, 2017, 01:47 PM
maksimsmelchak maksimsmelchak is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 810
Gallery : 0
maksimsmelchak Citizen+maksimsmelchak Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whipsnade View Post
I can't see how the MT and AotI stories can be reconciled.
In typically GDW fashion, wield the retcon sledgehammer.

The Kebkh are now 5-peds according to AOTI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whipsnade View Post
Finally, in the other thread Robject mentions that Our Absent Friend Don took an interest in Deyis II and the Kebkh with an eye towards "cleaning up" DGP's Primordials/Baddies from the Core suggestion. (There was an implied connection between the Primordials and Kebkh. IIRC, Mr. Fugate touched on the topic in his Q&A column in a MTJ issue.)
*** What is the Core suggestion, please? ***

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old January 22nd, 2017, 01:59 PM
mike wightman's Avatar
mike wightman mike wightman is offline
Noble
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 14,478
Gallery : 0
mike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizen
Default

The primordials are an advanced race that pre-dates the Ancients by a considerable margin. Their juvenile form is the race on Deyis.

They long ago left this part of space to head to the galactic core.

Grandfather gave the Zhodani their precog machine to spur them to investigate where the primordials went off to.

During the MT/Rebellion era they (the primordials/sparklers) were going to come back. and cause all sort of mischief - to be detailed in the adventure that would have accompanied the Zhodani/Droyne alien book

MT Journal issue 4 tells you everything we know.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old January 22nd, 2017, 02:46 PM
maksimsmelchak maksimsmelchak is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 810
Gallery : 0
maksimsmelchak Citizen+maksimsmelchak Citizen+
Default

Thanks, Mike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
The primordials are an advanced race that pre-dates the Ancients by a considerable margin. Their juvenile form is the race on Deyis.
Oy. So Kebkh = Primordial. Oy vey.

I got the impression that the Kebkh were furred mammals.

Marc made them 5-peds in AOTI.

So, now they later turn into reptilianoid snails... LOL

Traveller is always good for an interesting story. LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
They long ago left this part of space to head to the galactic core.
I remember that now. Thanks. And numerous subplots that the ancients and Primordials had a love/hate relationship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
Grandfather gave the Zhodani their precog machine to spur them to investigate where the primordials went off to. During the MT/Rebellion era they (the primordials/sparklers) were going to come back. and cause all sort of mischief - to be detailed in the adventure that would have accompanied the Zhodani/Droyne alien book.
OK. Cool. I recall it now. Wish I had Whipsnade's memory for the minutia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
MT Journal issue 4 tells you everything we know.
I haven't read that book for at least a decade... LOL

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old January 22nd, 2017, 05:23 PM
Whipsnade's Avatar
Whipsnade Whipsnade is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Dover, New Hampshire, USA
Posts: 5,569
Gallery : 5
Visit Whipsnade's Blog
Whipsnade Citizen+Whipsnade Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by maksimsmelchak View Post
Oy. So Kebkh = Primordial.

Not quite.

MT Kebkh = Primordial. AotI/T5 Kebkh = Something Else Entirely.

It's pretty clear that MT Deyis II =/= AotI/T5 Deyis II.

Quote:
Oy vey.
That's putting it mildly.

Quote:
I got the impression that the Kebkh were furred mammals.
They sort of were, but...

Quote:
Marc made them 5-peds in AOTI.
... they were changed and - most likely - deliberately so.

Quote:
So, now they later turn into reptilianoid snails.
The "videos" seen at the Shimmering City in Knightfall show the "adult" Primordials simply as larger versions of the "juvenile" form. The "adults" walk upright while the "juveniles" walk on all fours with the behavior of the "adults" is shown as less foolish and involve psionics.

The large furry sessile (?) nautilidae Mr. Fugate writes about in MTJ #4 seem to be a body form which either occurs later in the life cycle or (perhaps) one that is deliberately chosen.

Quote:
Wish I had Whipsnade's memory for the minutia.
I put on two different color socks this morning. Believe me, you don't want my memory.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old January 28th, 2017, 09:35 AM
maksimsmelchak maksimsmelchak is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 810
Gallery : 0
maksimsmelchak Citizen+maksimsmelchak Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whipsnade View Post
Not quite.
MT Kebkh = Primordial. AotI/T5 Kebkh = Something Else Entirely.

It's pretty clear that MT Deyis II =/= AotI/T5 Deyis II.

That's putting it mildly.

They sort of were, but...

... they were changed and - most likely - deliberately so.

The "videos" seen at the Shimmering City in Knightfall show the "adult" Primordials simply as larger versions of the "juvenile" form. The "adults" walk upright while the "juveniles" walk on all fours with the behavior of the "adults" is shown as less foolish and involve psionics.

The large furry sessile (?) nautilidae Mr. Fugate writes about in MTJ #4 seem to be a body form which either occurs later in the life cycle or (perhaps) one that is deliberately chosen.

I put on two different color socks this morning. Believe me, you don't want my memory.
Thank you, Whipsnade, for your thoughtful reply.

I realize that the Primordials are veritable bullseye of retconning.

Shabbat Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old September 17th, 2017, 01:17 PM
robject's Avatar
robject robject is offline
Marquis
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 13,103
Gallery : 9
Visit robject's Blog
robject has disabled reputation
Default

If pushed, I will comb my emails for the references. Barring that, my faulty memory thinks this:

(1) Don McKinney wanted the Primordials scrubbed clean from canon. I believe it was therefore his idea that Deyis II be the world that is scrubbed in AOTI. Marc agreed.

[edit: actually it's not that straightforward. Apparently scrubbing Deyis was indeed Marc's idea, and carried out by Andrea Vallance in some writings, but also heartily approved of by Don.]

(2) I want the Primordials partly in, approximately but not exactly to the degree that Knightfall uses them. Don and Marc both dislike the term; since I don't care what we call them, I'm fine with that. Also, mentioning the word "Primordials" around Don would cause him to react strongly negatively. So again change the name but keep them as a long-extinct race.

(3) Joe's vision for the Primordials (as Baddies from the Core) therefore doesn't exist.

(4) ? There might be a (4). Don't know.


EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by June 26, 2014, Don McKinney
Marc told me a long time ago that the primordials never happened. The sophonts in the MT Referee's Kit are there, but the primordials never happened, and they don't turn into primordials.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aug 2016, Marc Miller
The Precursors. Strange pocket universes. (?) -3 million.
(I.e. Due to the baggage that comes with calling them Primordials)
__________________
Imperiallines magazine
My Helpful Stuff for Traveller5
IMTU tc+ t5++ 3i(+) au ls+ / OTU 44% an+ dt+ ge- j- jf+ n- pi+ pp+ tr+ tv- uwp+ xb+
Tools Link

Last edited by robject; September 17th, 2017 at 02:21 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old September 18th, 2017, 12:13 PM
GypsyComet's Avatar
GypsyComet GypsyComet is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 3,361
Gallery : 3
GypsyComet Citizen+GypsyComet Citizen+GypsyComet Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by robject View Post
(3) Joe's vision for the Primordials (as Baddies from the Core) therefore doesn't exist.
Since they were only exposed through Joe's somewhat catty publishing of that "this is what GDW took from you by reclaiming Traveller from us" outline, the Baddies don't exist at all except in the desires of those who saw everything from DGP as exalted. That it would have extended the Rebellion's decade-long and Imperium-wide spectator event another five or more years and wrecked the setting even more than was already the case is widely ignored.

The Baddies in that speculative form can be safely ignored, even while some of their preparatory work (the adventure in the screen, the unrest among the Zhodani) survives to be re-interpreted.

Marc has re-written Deyis II in a way that can explain why the Kebkh found in the MT era would be a surprise. The world was scrubbed and reset, but apparently quietly reseeded later. Whether the Kebkh of AotI are the same as those found in MT is an open question, but I can see a couple explanations:
-They aren't the same. The beings found in the MT era have been tagged as Kebkh by the Agent (or similar) in Imperial records to obfuscate the originals.
-They are the same species, modified through a clandestine effort to appear different in the two eras. This effort could be Agent driven, sought by the surviving off-world Kebkh, or (to dip into the Primordials/Baddies well just slightly) a natural drift by a species already prone to polymorphism as they adapted to a "new" world.

Knightfall's Primordials, including the Referee's secret and supposedly objective data, can be hand-waved by the simple artifice of being converted to in-universe subjective speculation. The ruins found were obviously advanced, so throwing off even the Imperium's high tech methods of estimating age is trivial.
__________________
We are all playing different games that happen to have the same name.

"Alright. Where did that Beaker get a cred stick?"
(Website down until further notice)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Who we are redux sabredog The Lone Star 5 September 7th, 2014 08:06 PM
Piracy Redux Golan2072 The Fleet 256 April 24th, 2008 10:28 AM
CT Combat Redux Golan2072 Classic Traveller 77 May 19th, 2006 08:26 PM
The Rebellion Redux Michael Schulz MegaTraveller 182 March 1st, 2006 10:28 AM
Seeker Redux? T. Foster The Lone Star 10 August 8th, 2002 12:00 PM

This website and its contents are copyright ©2010-2013 Far Future Enterprises. All rights reserved. Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises .
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright (c) 2010-2013, Far Future Enterprises. All Rights Reserved.