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  #111  
Old March 17th, 2005, 09:43 PM
kaladorn kaladorn is offline
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Part of the thing many of you might not be quite tuned in to when I discuss the particulars of the Canadian situation - the RCMP tends to police a lot of rural areas. Areas where the rapid response team is 45 minutes away. Urban environments are different - the ERT team may be less than 10 mins away. But out in the country, it could be 45 mins or an hour away (or longer). And if there is only one and it is busy, you're SOL.

In those kinds of situations, your cop himself better have a minimum level of lethal force (pistol, rifle and shotgun) available, or else he's in a world of hurt.

So just consider urban and rural policing are not the same situation. Also, any domestic in a rural situation and you can almost gaurantee that a farmer has a rifle for dealing with varmints.

I'm not arguing against non-lethal solutions, I just argue in favour of a continuum of response. Flexibility is (IMO) the key to general duty policing in the kind of sparsely populated worlds that many traveller worlds are.

High pop worlds probably have way more cops and way more options on call at short notice.

Note that in Mayerthorpe, the 4 RCMP members who were gunned down represented more than 1/3rd of that detachment. If you figure others would have been off duty, etc. Well, you get the picture. The ERT team took hours to arrive on scene from Edmonton. That's the reality of rural policing on frontier planets too, I believe.

Great Britain is a different situation, largerly. England hasn't been a frontier for a long time. The vast bulk of its population is urban or suburban. Even the 'rural' parts are often within a reasonable trip of 'urban' reinforcements. (Now, British roads suck sometimes, but air assets can arrive reasonably quickly)

Also, the RCMP operates at a far different ratio of police to policed. I believe at one point, I heard someone say 1 police per thousand was about ideal. Vancouver I think might have been about 1 to 1400. It was considered 'well staffed'. RCMP tend to be about 1 police per two thousand. A good night was 2 active calls per officer in the detachments I worked in. A bad night was 5. Then people wonder why the cops don't treat 'theft' as a major rush-to-it crime if there is no bad guy around - they're too busy responding to 'person affecting' crimes elsewhere. If you aren't in lethal danger, you can file a report on Monday. The cops have other (possibly life and death) fish to fry. And places like Baltimore in the US have trouble staffing to their 'textbook TO&E' levels due to payscale issues - they typically run 20-40% understrength.

So staffing levels will have something to do with how wide of a response capability an individual officer needs. If he doesn't have enough help or backup, his best equalizers are training and a wider range of options to respond with.

Just some extra things to consider.
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  #112  
Old March 17th, 2005, 09:43 PM
kaladorn kaladorn is offline
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Part of the thing many of you might not be quite tuned in to when I discuss the particulars of the Canadian situation - the RCMP tends to police a lot of rural areas. Areas where the rapid response team is 45 minutes away. Urban environments are different - the ERT team may be less than 10 mins away. But out in the country, it could be 45 mins or an hour away (or longer). And if there is only one and it is busy, you're SOL.

In those kinds of situations, your cop himself better have a minimum level of lethal force (pistol, rifle and shotgun) available, or else he's in a world of hurt.

So just consider urban and rural policing are not the same situation. Also, any domestic in a rural situation and you can almost gaurantee that a farmer has a rifle for dealing with varmints.

I'm not arguing against non-lethal solutions, I just argue in favour of a continuum of response. Flexibility is (IMO) the key to general duty policing in the kind of sparsely populated worlds that many traveller worlds are.

High pop worlds probably have way more cops and way more options on call at short notice.

Note that in Mayerthorpe, the 4 RCMP members who were gunned down represented more than 1/3rd of that detachment. If you figure others would have been off duty, etc. Well, you get the picture. The ERT team took hours to arrive on scene from Edmonton. That's the reality of rural policing on frontier planets too, I believe.

Great Britain is a different situation, largerly. England hasn't been a frontier for a long time. The vast bulk of its population is urban or suburban. Even the 'rural' parts are often within a reasonable trip of 'urban' reinforcements. (Now, British roads suck sometimes, but air assets can arrive reasonably quickly)

Also, the RCMP operates at a far different ratio of police to policed. I believe at one point, I heard someone say 1 police per thousand was about ideal. Vancouver I think might have been about 1 to 1400. It was considered 'well staffed'. RCMP tend to be about 1 police per two thousand. A good night was 2 active calls per officer in the detachments I worked in. A bad night was 5. Then people wonder why the cops don't treat 'theft' as a major rush-to-it crime if there is no bad guy around - they're too busy responding to 'person affecting' crimes elsewhere. If you aren't in lethal danger, you can file a report on Monday. The cops have other (possibly life and death) fish to fry. And places like Baltimore in the US have trouble staffing to their 'textbook TO&E' levels due to payscale issues - they typically run 20-40% understrength.

So staffing levels will have something to do with how wide of a response capability an individual officer needs. If he doesn't have enough help or backup, his best equalizers are training and a wider range of options to respond with.

Just some extra things to consider.
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  #113  
Old March 18th, 2005, 02:57 AM
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Israeli criminals rarely kill cops; they usually bomb each other (yes, car bombs; sometimes they kill several bystanders as well as their target) or shoot at judges (the new favorite criminal passtime). The real threat to an Israeli cop's life comes from terrorists; due to shortages in military manpower inside Israel, as too much of the military is deployed in the territories, cops do alot of anti-terrorist work, such as setting roadblocks and checkpoints, responding to terror threats and trying to prevent bombings. Ofcourse, response times in a small country such as Israel are short, but when a suspected suicide bomber is going to explode, you don't have much time to call for backup. Cops are armed here; armament varies, but usually consists of semi-auto pistols (I'm yet to see a revolver in this country out of a recreational firing range) or old M1 rifles, when cops in danger zones (especially borders or semi-official borders) get bulletproof jackets and assualt rifles (Galil MARs or M4's).
---

Now, on to MTU. I've already discussed the Solar Triumvirate police system and the threats they face (gangs and terrorists, especially Matriarchate-funded ecoterrorists); these guys are well armed and well armored (pistol or SMG and mesh-equivalent uniforms, and a shotgun in the squad air/raft). Rapid-response teams and riot-cops are armed and armored to milspec (ACRs, cloth, maybe even Combat Armor).

The Alliance, which is about 90% frontier, uses a militia system, which also serves as the army reserve, and which is organized around an active Army cadre. So frontier police duty is somewhat of a wild west (or wild west myth) style: if the Sheriff (Army cadre officer) can't handle the criminal threat, he or she organizes a Posse (the militia) to deal with it. Ofcourse, an Army officer assigned to a militia cadre duty is still an Army officer, and usually has access to Cloth armor and to an ACR, for the very least; militia troops use flack jackets and Assault Rifles.

Alliance cops on the few dense population worlds use mostly dartguns (with fast-acting non-lethal paralyzing neurotoxins). Even if a civilian is accidentally hit by a dart, the worst thing that could happen to him is a few hours of sleep.
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  #114  
Old March 18th, 2005, 02:57 AM
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Israeli criminals rarely kill cops; they usually bomb each other (yes, car bombs; sometimes they kill several bystanders as well as their target) or shoot at judges (the new favorite criminal passtime). The real threat to an Israeli cop's life comes from terrorists; due to shortages in military manpower inside Israel, as too much of the military is deployed in the territories, cops do alot of anti-terrorist work, such as setting roadblocks and checkpoints, responding to terror threats and trying to prevent bombings. Ofcourse, response times in a small country such as Israel are short, but when a suspected suicide bomber is going to explode, you don't have much time to call for backup. Cops are armed here; armament varies, but usually consists of semi-auto pistols (I'm yet to see a revolver in this country out of a recreational firing range) or old M1 rifles, when cops in danger zones (especially borders or semi-official borders) get bulletproof jackets and assualt rifles (Galil MARs or M4's).
---

Now, on to MTU. I've already discussed the Solar Triumvirate police system and the threats they face (gangs and terrorists, especially Matriarchate-funded ecoterrorists); these guys are well armed and well armored (pistol or SMG and mesh-equivalent uniforms, and a shotgun in the squad air/raft). Rapid-response teams and riot-cops are armed and armored to milspec (ACRs, cloth, maybe even Combat Armor).

The Alliance, which is about 90% frontier, uses a militia system, which also serves as the army reserve, and which is organized around an active Army cadre. So frontier police duty is somewhat of a wild west (or wild west myth) style: if the Sheriff (Army cadre officer) can't handle the criminal threat, he or she organizes a Posse (the militia) to deal with it. Ofcourse, an Army officer assigned to a militia cadre duty is still an Army officer, and usually has access to Cloth armor and to an ACR, for the very least; militia troops use flack jackets and Assault Rifles.

Alliance cops on the few dense population worlds use mostly dartguns (with fast-acting non-lethal paralyzing neurotoxins). Even if a civilian is accidentally hit by a dart, the worst thing that could happen to him is a few hours of sleep.
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  #115  
Old March 18th, 2005, 08:45 AM
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I think you need to consider the following:
How clean/honest is the law enforcement?
How much area does the officer has to cover?
How is the standard criminal armed?
How does the standard population act?
Aka New York city not my problem dude
or Andy Griffin's home town people
or the mythical 50's,60's Timmy is spray painting the building I going to whale the tar out of him, call Andy, and then his folks who are going to whale the tar out of him.
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  #116  
Old March 18th, 2005, 08:45 AM
jasper jasper is offline
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I think you need to consider the following:
How clean/honest is the law enforcement?
How much area does the officer has to cover?
How is the standard criminal armed?
How does the standard population act?
Aka New York city not my problem dude
or Andy Griffin's home town people
or the mythical 50's,60's Timmy is spray painting the building I going to whale the tar out of him, call Andy, and then his folks who are going to whale the tar out of him.
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  #117  
Old March 18th, 2005, 03:10 PM
kaladorn kaladorn is offline
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The one problem with the 'dartgun' is for almost every chemical compound, there is some chance of a lethal reaction. Even Dazzlers and Tasers have issues with siezures and heart attacks. I guess non-lethal really means 'significantly less lethal unless you have a particular vulnerability'.

This has become a problem as some cops get so used to the non-lethal effect of the taser/dazzler/spray, they end up overusing it.

As someone said, private security firms are more of a concern due to far lesser regulation (let's add bounty hunters to that equation too).
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  #118  
Old March 18th, 2005, 03:10 PM
kaladorn kaladorn is offline
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The one problem with the 'dartgun' is for almost every chemical compound, there is some chance of a lethal reaction. Even Dazzlers and Tasers have issues with siezures and heart attacks. I guess non-lethal really means 'significantly less lethal unless you have a particular vulnerability'.

This has become a problem as some cops get so used to the non-lethal effect of the taser/dazzler/spray, they end up overusing it.

As someone said, private security firms are more of a concern due to far lesser regulation (let's add bounty hunters to that equation too).
__________________
"Tell them, that from this place we will deliver notice to the parliaments of conquerors that a line has been drawn against the darkness. And we will hold that line, .. no matter the cost." -- Cpt. Sheridan "The Long, Twilight Struggle"
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  #119  
Old March 18th, 2005, 03:29 PM
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I think I'd rather take my chances of surviving a "mistaken identity" scenario with a trigger happy cop armed with a dart gun or taser rather than a 9mm or .40

I notice that in MT the tranq rounds from early stellar TL snub sistols etc. can cause death by overdose. The TL16 neural weapons can also occasionally kill.

The ideal weapon for CT police to carry may be the ultrasonic stun carbine from CTDA Divine Intervention.
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  #120  
Old March 18th, 2005, 03:29 PM
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I think I'd rather take my chances of surviving a "mistaken identity" scenario with a trigger happy cop armed with a dart gun or taser rather than a 9mm or .40

I notice that in MT the tranq rounds from early stellar TL snub sistols etc. can cause death by overdose. The TL16 neural weapons can also occasionally kill.

The ideal weapon for CT police to carry may be the ultrasonic stun carbine from CTDA Divine Intervention.
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