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TWILIGHT: 2000 1E/2E Discussion of the Twilight: 2000 from GDW.

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  #11  
Old January 25th, 2005, 12:29 PM
PBI PBI is offline
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I agree that the spec ops types are a little harder to craft a skill set for, since they tend not to want to advertise [img]smile.gif[/img] Also, I know that it'd be damn near impossible to fully detail all the various armed forces, but big things like having Canadians running around with M-60s and Canucks and Brits getting out of basic training without any first aid at all? Okay, so maybe the first aid thing isn't that big
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  #12  
Old January 25th, 2005, 03:00 PM
kaladorn kaladorn is offline
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I knew emergency first aid including treatment of broken bones, bleeding, shock, hypthermia, etc. and gunshots when I got through with basic.

Of course, I had a friend who watched US forces from the Southern US, up on an exchange program, disobey his suggestion (he was only a corporal, the local guide) to stay off a river that was frozen (of course, not as much near the shores!). He warned them, they told him basically to button it. Someone went in. He then told them they needed to get him in a sleeping bag with someone else post-haste to let skin-to-skin transfer body heat. The US officer wouldn't allow it (had quite a homophobic response). My friend called in the evac, but the poor bugger died of hypothermia and shock.

In the CF, that would get you cashiered. When the Canadian Colonel took it up with the US Major, the response was 'acceptable training losses'.

Maybe first aid isn't a US strong point (Of course, this is probably an anomalous experience, I admit!)

Part of it probably was not wanting to detail all the different weapons, etc.
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  #13  
Old January 25th, 2005, 03:50 PM
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My beef with the weapons issue, in particular, was that T2K 2.0 had Canada using weapons never issued to the CF, not using ones that were in widespread use, and only partial listing of the old, "no longer used but there's still a feeling of nostalgia" weapons.

That is partially what the weapons guides were for, but the core rules got simple, basic equipment wrong, including the initial kit list for a Canuck; I remember reading the 'awesome extras' the Yank PCs got and had a great time seeing the look on the other players' faces when the CF PC showed up with about half again as much kit as the US characters, and all for free.

As for first aid being taught or not taught to the US mil, I don't know either. I do remember playing with some of the US signals troops, though, and being astonished at how specialized they were. The luxury of having over a million bodies in uniform, I guess [img]smile.gif[/img]
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  #14  
Old January 25th, 2005, 05:27 PM
kaladorn kaladorn is offline
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Well, M-16 could pass for a C7, but that was a later issue anyway (and slightly improved on the M16A2 in trivial ways). They could easily have had us using the FN C1s (close to the FAL) and C2s. And the Browning HP.

And the kit lists were pretty well wrong. The CF does have some nice kit, if you're lucky enough to be in a unit to get it. But that supply situation is a bit variable. One unit I was associated with had 40 odd members and about 100 gas masks and chem suits. My infantry unit had about 200 members and about 40 or so masks and I think maybe 1 or 2 full chem suits. So supply vagarities would still play into it. Still, basic CF kit was good. I liked our webbing a lot better than all that stuff with ALICE clips, among other things. And cold weather gear was pretty reasonable. I was jealous of US rain gear at the time.

You make a good point about specialization. A friend recently got asked by a USN Bosun how to read ' one of them map things '. Now, as anyone who has proper nautical navigation training knows, it is not a map but a chart. The fact a Bosun had no idea how to even read one, and he was supposed to be conning a US vessel (small, true enough) at the time was rather scary. Part of the inability to read tide tables allowed one of the USN boats to be grounded inside Canadian waters. (They had to leave guys on it, they were afraid the RCN would try to claim it for salvage...).

So I think we do actually have a broader scope of training. I don't doubt the average US grunt gets better comms gear, better arty support, better toys for MOUT than we do, but I also feel certain we've got better cross-training in our forces (especially in armour or other vehicular troops), we've had to be resourceful do to our lower budgets, and we're a better at OOTW.

It would be interesting if the new version of the game could reflect some of those types of differences, where a particular nation has strengths in one area or another. That might serve to make different national forces more different than just a different fatigue pattern and native language...
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  #15  
Old January 25th, 2005, 08:37 PM
GJD GJD is offline
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Ultimately, at the end of the day, it comes down to who has the nicer rations.

G.
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  #16  
Old January 25th, 2005, 10:14 PM
kaladorn kaladorn is offline
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True enough. MREs have come a long way. And Canadian rations are actually darn good, from my experience. I never starved. Heck, with the kind of workout you get running, doing A-to-C, being up all night on picket, doing random bursts of physical activity, etc. or trudging through the bush on excercise with 60 lbs of gear, you could eat like a horse and you didn't gain weight... (alas, the job of the computer programmer does not share that character.... but fewer people shoot at us...)
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  #17  
Old January 29th, 2005, 12:46 AM
imported_Sgt_Biggles imported_Sgt_Biggles is offline
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Looking at the various nations and their training programs, there is not a whole lot of difference. I have trained with, been trained by or trained members of several nations spec ops folks or law enforcement agencies.

If you take a Canadian, British, American and Russian infantry specialist, each with two years of service, you will find they all have the equivalent amount of training, or close enough it makes no never mind. Their knowledge and skills are going to be pretty much the same. What changes is the gear they use and of course terminology. Even when you get into Special Forces, different nations have similar training. In fact many nations train along side their foreign counterparts. U.S. Ranger classes have British and Canadian troops assigned on a regular basis. The same is true of the U.S. Marines Recon Battalion. I have trained with the British special police and with some specialized Germany units. Several of my supervisors spent time with the Canadian Mounties (RCMP?)

So how important in a game like Twilight is tweaking the starting feats and skills based on nationality, verses specialty? Is it enough to offer a large pool of basic skills and feats to choose from and call an Infantryman an Infantryman or a Tanker a Tanker? Letting the player adjust for more specific skills per his or her preference? In this case, the Canadian is sporting a C7A2; the Yank, an M16A3; and the Brit a SA80 (L85A1). Throw a Russian into the mix with similar, player selected skills and feats based on the infantry pool who is sporting an AK-74.

This is my own opinion, but whenever I have trained with members of different countries the things that standout and make them unique are their personal actions and idiosyncrasies. Brits are always smiling and love being ribbed as much as they love doing the ribbing. Canadians a more somber, with a darker sense of humor. Where a Brit will howl with laughter after pulling a fast one on a fellow soldier, the Canadian will chuckle to himself with a sly smile and a twinkle in his eye. Aussies will attempt to drink everyone under the table and the Germans will drink everyone under the table. What makes these soldiers memorable are elements that should be role-played in a game, not determined by numbers.

Thoughts?

Craig
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  #18  
Old January 29th, 2005, 01:45 PM
kaladorn kaladorn is offline
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Part of that similarity is the similarity of missions and some tactical similarities. If you are a SF Light Infantryman (Ranger), then your job description will be a lot like any other SF LI. OTOH, if you are an SF CT operator, your training focus will be very different. &lt;Obvious, but I think worth stating&gt;

Where I notice a difference is perhaps not exactly in the training, but in the approach to situations. Canadian Forces who train regularly with the UN and who often do international missions have a particular approach 'bred' into them. This makes its way into ROE and SOP. US Forces, who do a fair bit of training for force-on-force seem to be more focused on Force Protection than we are, generally.

This is tough to convey to an inexperienced player who doesn't have the experience to appreciate these idiosyncracies. When put side by side in the Balkans in tough situtations, CF command chose different coping/resolution strategies than USHQ. Thus, the reception by the locals was different as perhaps was the threat level experienced by the troops, etc. For instance, if you are CF, you just don't *have* the organic support elements that US usually does, so you learn different ways of dealing with problems with the resources you have.
This shows up even when you *have* access to those resources.

Now, also, comparing SF operators isn't probably a good comparison - by the nature of the biz, you get the best soldiers, generally experienced and broadly trained. Comparing normal soldiers or reservists, and perhaps other trades other than infantry might be instructive. When I was in CF (readying for the real Twilight War that never was), I had friends in armoured units who trained with their US counterparts. The CF guys were of the opinion that, in one of our Cougars, every man could easily slot into the job of the other since they cross-trained intensely. They ran into US forces for whom this was not the case - they may have been better at gunnery, or driving, or whatever, but they didn't have the same level of cross-training. So there *are* some differences.

YMMV, but I liked the original twilight supplements that finally got around to presenting the slightly different views of the various forces. &lt;shrug&gt;
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  #19  
Old January 29th, 2005, 07:43 PM
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I also ran into the same situation that Kaladorn describes on the communications side; it would not be unusual for myself or others from my unit to go work with American signallers who were very specialized as a general rule. We'd run into Americans who knew how to operate VHF but not HF sets, for example, whereas we were required, as a basic standard, to operate not only army radios, but some navy and air sets as well as sat units.

Additionally, in the CF at any rate, every recruit comes out with first aid training, yet that's not recognized in chargen. Other errors included allowing CF characters access to SMGs, M-60s, Barrettas, etc, when those weapons had either been retired (the SMG) or were never part of CF issue.

Those are the kinds of fundamental errors I was referring to.
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  #20  
Old January 29th, 2005, 09:01 PM
kaladorn kaladorn is offline
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Well, on the SMG side, the C1 (Sterling clone) was in use when I was getting into the forces in 1986-87 time frame. The Armoured Recce unit I was looking at joining had quite a few. They were retired sometime after that (in favour of the C8 I'd guess or maybe even before), but I could see some still kicking around in armouries somewhere and getting hauled out in the Twilight War when new kit was getting scarce (Heck, I can see Enfield Mk IVs being dug out if things get bad enough). But it would have been an oddity, rather than normal situation. Same with the access to the M9 or M-60, etc. You could justify a character picking one up as he kicked around Europe (it might be an easier-found replacement for a missing issue weapon), but that should have been the oddity, not the normal situation.
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