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Old October 4th, 2011, 04:16 PM
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Default Consolidated MT Errata v2.2 Antimatter Fuel Pod

I've got a question or maybe more concerning the Antimatter Fuel Pod on p. 26 of the Consolidated MT Errata v2.2.

The Consolidate Errata, p. 26, provides the following:

Quote:
Antimatter power plants use fuel pods: a special self-contained fuel package that contains a measured quantity of antimatter enclosed in a strong artificial gravity “bottle”. The bottle’s gravity fields are maintained by an array of super batteries. Fuel pods are the heart of an antimatter power plant, and they typically provide fuel for up to a year before needing replaced. Fuel pods also have a minimum size to which they may be built:

On MT: Referee's Manual p. 64 each Antimatter Power Plant has a minimum volume requirement.

Parameter:

A TL 17 Antimatter plant, per the table on MT: RM p. 64, must use be at least 8 kl in size, MT: RM p. 64.

A TL 17 fuel pod, per Consolidated Errata p. 26, has a minimum volume of 2 kl.

Question 1: Is the fuel pod minimum size incorporated into an antimatter power plant's minimum volume require?

Question 2: Are there separate weight and price requirements for a fuel pod?

Tom R
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Old October 4th, 2011, 10:20 PM
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I don't have good answers for your questions, but I can tell you that the errata you are mentioning is from the 10/1/88 Genie posting by GDW...

Now: what did they mean by that?
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Old October 5th, 2011, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonM View Post
I don't have good answers for your questions, but I can tell you that the errata you are mentioning is from the 10/1/88 Genie posting by GDW...

Now: what did they mean by that?
I was hoping someone might have a clue. Now here is hoping I've got a handle on how to build a Power Plant.

Parameters for a TL 17 Antimatter Power plant.
Power Out: 500 MW
Weight: 6 tons
Price: 500,000 Cr
Volume: 8 kl (At least I think that this is what the Min Volume column means)
Fuel usage/Year: 250 kl
Fuel weight: 250 tons
Price: 625,000 Cr

To be honest I haven't a clue on how the fuel pod works.

Thanks for the reply. Did I get the process right?
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Old October 5th, 2011, 07:27 PM
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E. D. Quibell provided help that is posted over at my post titled MT: RM Power Plant - Fusion at http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Dis...ad.php?t=25356

I'm pondering the fusion plant and antimatter fuel pod answers.
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Old October 5th, 2011, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snrdg082102 View Post

Parameters for a TL 17 Antimatter Power plant.
Power Out: 500 MW
Weight: 6 tons
Price: 500,000 Cr
Volume: 8 kl (At least I think that this is what the Min Volume column means)
Yup. That's reading strieght off the page, however it's not a minimum volume, it's a maximum. For anti matter Power Out is the maximum without destroying the power plant. I'm not sure why you couldn't have multiple 500 Mw anti matter power plants though, so i don't really see why this restriction is there, but that is beside the point.

Quote:
Fuel usage/Year: 250 kl
Fuel weight: 250 tons
Price: 625,000 Cr

To be honest I haven't a clue on how the fuel pod works.

Thanks for the reply. Did I get the process right?
You have the fuel wrong. To run this for a year you need 250 kl.

Each kl of fuel weighs 1 ton and costs 625,000 cr. So for a year the fuel would weigh 250 tons but cost 156,250,000 cr.

Best regards,

Ewan

Last edited by E.D.Quibell; October 5th, 2011 at 08:43 PM..
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Old October 5th, 2011, 10:58 PM
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Hello once again Ewan,

Are you referring to the text below as restricting the number of antimatter power plants to a single unit.

Quote:
Antimatter power output is the maximum that is possible without destroying the power plant.
I take the text to mean that an antimatter power plant's output after a certain point over stresses components which leads to a big boom. Engineers have determined that an 1 kiloliter TL 17 antimatter power plant avoids going boom when producing a maximum of 500 MW of output power. I can put as many antimatter power plants into a design as I want. Of course I think having one potential antimatter bomb is just the right number.

Oh how my brain is hurting when thinking about power plants.

So in the first Power Plant table the volume represents the smallest volume a system can be built. In the antimatter Volume = the largest. The maximum size TL 14 power plant is 8 kl that has a power output of 4,000 MW, weighs 48 metric tons, can be purchased for 4 MCr, and can cruise for 1 year on 2,000 kl of fuel under normal operating conditions.

My abbreviation of Fuel usage/Year - 250 kl was meant to mean a 250 kl fuel load will operate a 500 MW TL 17 antimatter power plant for one year under normal operations.

Good catch about the Price of the fuel being incorrect. I apparently was distracted and forgot to do the math before posting. I did review the post before sending and I swear the math was there web gremlins must have removed the calculation.

I really do hope I get a handle on power plants, of course I'm very to have already lost my mind otherwise I'd be in serious trouble.
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Old October 5th, 2011, 11:33 PM
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Okay, with Ewan's help, calculating the volume of an antimatter fuel pod is coming together.

I think I may have discovered a small problem for the fuel pod volume versus power plant volume. Per the errata a fuel pod is the heart of an antimatter power plant and the smallest fuel pod size is 2 kl. The specifications for antimatter power plants on the table on MT: RM p. 64 is for 1 kl. To me this means that a fuel pod can't be the heart of this type of power plant.

Additional questions (actually the originals)

Question 1: Is a fuel pods volume added to the power plant volume?

Question 1A: Is the fuel pod volume already part of the power plant's volume?

Question 2: In addition to volume shouldn't the power pod have weight and price requirements?
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Old October 6th, 2011, 08:41 AM
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Ok now you've got questioning if I'm doing it right (I don't usually play at TL17+).

And it turns out I'm doing it wrong !!!

The volume label on the Antimatter table should be "minimum volume"

So the smallest TL17 Antimatter power plant we can build is 8kl, and the units are listed as per kl.

So the smallest antimatter power plant at TL17 is:

8 kl Volume
4000 Mw Output
36 tons Weight
4 Mcr Price
2000 kl/y Fuel (or 5.479 kl per day)


Fuel cost is 3,424,657 Cr (MCr 3.4) per day !!!!

So while the power plant is cheep (MCr 4 for 4000 Mw is very very cheep) the fuel is very very very very expensive, and very very large.

10 days of fuel will pay for an equiverlent 4000 Mw TL16 Fusion plant, and 30 days of antimatter fuel is about 85% of the volume of the equiverlent Fusion plant.

Basically making it not worth the effort to implement, and as fuel rates stay relative to power output as the TL incresese there is no TL efficency savings on fuel size or cost.

At TL21 the smallest power plant is:

0.02 kl Volume
1000 Mw Output
0.04 tons Weight
10,000 Cr Price
500 kl/y Fuel (or 1.3699 kl per day)

Fuel cost is Cr 856,187.5 per day !!

Now 1000 Mw for Cr 10,000 is very very very cheep, but the fuel cost and size is VERY Expensive and very large.

The text suggests that you can run these as less power out and thus use less fuel. So if say we run this at 10 Mw output we should be able to reduce the fuel consumption to 0.013699 kl per day, at a cost of Cr 8,562 a day !!! Still way too expensive. If you run it down in the 1 Mw range where is kind of makes sence you get equiverment output and costs from an MHD Turbine, and while the Hydrogen fuel is much larger in volume it's considerably cheaper.

Tom. I should forget about Antimatter power plants they are just not worth the money spent on the fuel. Stick to TL16 Fusion plants if you are designing TL17+ shipps.

Best regards,

Ewan
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Old October 6th, 2011, 10:13 AM
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Morning Ewan,

Goody, I'm not the only who got confused with power plants in MT. My intent was not to prove anyone wrong, one is never wrong, one is just in a different reality that needs slight adjustment , about anything to do with antimatter power plants and the addition of antimatter fuel pods. I'm one of the individuals that tries to follow the design sequence from start to finish as written and modified by official errata. Any Home brew alterations that make sense might be included after the first draft.

Another goody since I appear to have been on the right track, maybe the light at the end of the tunnel is getting brighter again.

Unless the MTU, actually any of the canon TUs, can find deposits of antimatter the creation of the fuel is going to be more expensive than the other types. At TL 17 I have no problems with the price of antimatter fuel listed on MT: RM p. 83 being 625,000 Cr. Unfortunately I don't see that the price to be the same over the next 4 Technology levels. Of course the manufacture of antimatter fuel will still be more expensive that for hydrogen, radioactives, and hydrocarbons.

I realize the MTU concerns the collapse of the 3I, however all of the established cultures are still around. The Darrian's still have mothballed vessels, not to mention were progressing toward their former technology base. So an antimatter power plant is possible.

I'm not in the position currently to even think about designing anything yet, especially power plants in any form. Hopefully I will be successful in getting a handle on power plant design with all the help I'm getting to move on to locomotion.

Stay tuned for a new post that checks to see if I have a handle on batteries, fuel cells, and solar cells. Hey, why is everyone groaning and shaking their heads was it something I typed?

Thanks Ewan for your efforts.
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Last edited by snrdg082102; October 6th, 2011 at 07:56 PM..
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Old October 6th, 2011, 02:13 PM
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Most MT TL 17+ stuff is really incoherent with any science, and few (if any) is cost effective. Not only AM plants, but also weaponry is not really more effective (as I pointed out already in former posts, see posts 525+ in the errata thread, specifically http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Dis...&postcount=525).

Quote:
Originally Posted by E.D.Quibell View Post
Now 1000 Mw for Cr 10,000 is very very very cheep, but the fuel cost and size is VERY Expensive and very large.
Most MT fuel needs are astronomically absurd. I readed in some article (sorry, I cannot find it now, it was on MTJ or TD, IIRC) about radioactives that fuel needs are so large because they come in pods, form which only a small part is really fuel (radioactives, in this case), the rest being shielding, and so on. IMHO that could also be told of AM.

This might be a good explanation, but, if so, I guess there would be different pods of different size, the larger the more efficient (less shielding per mass of true fuel). If you need 1 kl to hold and contain 1 gr of antihydrogen, that does not mean you need 1000 kl to hold 1 kg of it. Probably the shielding and containing will be little more for a kg of antihydrogen than for a gram of it, as most of it is grav/magnetic shileding. So, a ship that needs (let's say, numbers are here taken from my hat, not solid science) 1 gr of AM to be fueled for 3 months, may need in fact 1 kl of volume, but a ship that needs 1 kg of it, probably won't need 1000 kl, unless the only pods it finds are 1 gr/1kl sized, but I guess if those ships were built, different sized pods would be also to maximize its usefulness.

To represent this (IMHO), fuel pods should be described as (numbers again taken from my hat) 2 kl + 0.05 kl/kl of PP supported, or something like that, representing the minimum shielding equipment and the increased efficiency as it has to hold more AM.
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Last edited by McPerth; November 12th, 2011 at 05:01 AM.. Reason: typos
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