Traveller Store CotI Features New Posts Mark Forums Read Register


Go Back TravellerRPG.com > Citizens of the Imperium > Other Versions of Traveller > MegaTraveller

MegaTraveller Discuss of the MegaTraveller ruleset and the Rebellion Milieu

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old August 5th, 2019, 10:10 AM
mike wightman's Avatar
mike wightman mike wightman is offline
Noble
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 16,711
Gallery : 0
mike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizen
Default

Perhaps the Mongoose Traveller authors should learn to do some basic research.

Dark Nebula gives Solomani Confederation Cruiser Squadrons. Why would they stop building them?

The order of battle for Invasion Earth specifically mentions Solomani jump capable ships have already fled, the fleet counters remaining are the BR...

there has to be more info on the Solomani Confederation fleet somewhere other than MgT.
__________________
The beauty of CT LBB1-3 is that the ref is free to make such decisions for themselves.

Last edited by mike wightman; August 5th, 2019 at 01:04 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old August 5th, 2019, 12:05 PM
Garnfellow Garnfellow is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 812
Gallery : 5
Garnfellow Citizen+Garnfellow Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
Perhaps the Mongoose Traveller authors should learn to do some basic research.
You're really reaching with both of those examples.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old August 5th, 2019, 12:34 PM
mike wightman's Avatar
mike wightman mike wightman is offline
Noble
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 16,711
Gallery : 0
mike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizen
Default

Lol, not really.

The first example is concrete proof of Solomani Confederation CruRons in the Dark Nebula era.

I can not explain why the Solomani Confederation would stop building the various cruiser squadrons that are listed.

The second fact worries me that an author assuming because there are no cruiser counters on the Solomani side in I:E the Solomani Confederation therefore has no cruiser squadrons in its fleet order of battle hasn't actually read the game rules.

They then invent the fluff based on a misunderstanding.

The Solomani Fleet at the outset of the Solomani Rim war was basically identical in composition and organisation to the Imperial fleet, since that's what it was until its crews defected to the Solomani Confederation.

Was there a Solomani fleet written up for Power Projection: Fleet?
__________________
The beauty of CT LBB1-3 is that the ref is free to make such decisions for themselves.

Last edited by mike wightman; August 5th, 2019 at 01:24 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old August 5th, 2019, 02:35 PM
kilemall kilemall is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4,782
Gallery : 0
kilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizenkilemall Respected Citizen
Default

So how treasonous is it to pass on these conspiracy theories, or worse truths?


Would we all end up in Imperial prisons/Zho reconditioning/Sol thought camps?


Or are we unwitting Hiver agents?
__________________
YUMV- Your Universe May Vary.
YOMD- Your Opinion May Differ.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old August 5th, 2019, 03:02 PM
Nathan Brazil's Avatar
Nathan Brazil Nathan Brazil is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,124
Gallery : 0
Nathan Brazil Citizen+Nathan Brazil Citizen+
Default

Not me.

Chaos, panic, disorder. My job here is done. Back to the Confederation for me.

Solomani Uber Alles!

__________________
"I am bound by canon" - Marc W Miller at Gamerhole Con 2016
IMTU tc+ tm tn++ t4+ tg t20++ ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt-- au- ls pi+ ta he+ hi++ as va ith-- vr+ ne- so+
Nathan Brazil 0401 X55A670-A S he+ hi++ as va ith-- vr+ ne- so+ 733
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old August 5th, 2019, 03:07 PM
Condottiere Condottiere is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,625
Gallery : 0
Condottiere Citizen++Condottiere Citizen++Condottiere Citizen++Condottiere Citizen++
Default

The Confederation Navy was brimming with cruisers during the War of Imperium Aggression.

I suspect that cruiser procurement for the Confederation Navy has been hijacked for the last half century, and that there is a distinctive gap between two and hundred kay warships.

My take on it is that only (Deep) Strike Cruisers are regularly constructed, and any cruisers are directly commanded by the Confederation Navy Central Headquarters, and detached for independent cruises from the Strategic Reserve.

Member world navies would likely have cruisers that they had procured for themselves, and have been passed down from the Confederation Navy.

I've accepted the dichotomy and see it as an opportunity for interesting doctrines.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old August 5th, 2019, 08:43 PM
Garnfellow Garnfellow is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 812
Gallery : 5
Garnfellow Citizen+Garnfellow Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
The first example is concrete proof of Solomani Confederation CruRons in the Dark Nebula era.
Come on, Mike -- "concrete proof"? I love Dark Nebula, I think the system names alone beat any region of Charted Space for sheer inspiration. But its canonical authority is not exactly unimpeachable. The best one can say about the boardgame's relationship to the OTU is "it hasn't been decanonized yet." For starters, when and where is DN set? If you could establish it was set in a specific area of Charted Space at any time between 1002 and 1120, I would be 100% with you.

Quote:
The second fact worries me that an author assuming because there are no cruiser counters on the Solomani side in I:E the Solomani Confederation therefore has no cruiser squadrons in its fleet order of battle hasn't actually read the game rules.
Keep in mind, the Mongoose writers were following the lead of MJD's T20 work. And that's an important point.

You might not like the decisions, and you might have good and defensible reasons for your preferences, but it's not fair to claim that the Mongoose writers failed to conduct basic research here. I can't speak to all of the Mongoose books, but a careful reading of the MGT Solomani Rim supplement and the Solomani alien module shows that the authors certainly put the work in. They very clearly tried to thoughtfully incorporate tricky bits of "forbidden canon" from DGP as well as relevant information from T20 and GURPS Traveller. I don't love all the decisions, but I haven't found any that were made due to sloppiness or wanton disregard of earlier work.

Quote:
The Solomani Fleet at the outset of the Solomani Rim war was basically identical in composition and organisation to the Imperial fleet, since that's what it was until its crews defected to the Solomani Confederation.
Nope. The Solomani reorganized themselves as the Confederation in 871, a "move . . . tantamount to declaring independence." By 908, following the ascension of Margret II, you see armed confrontation between the Imperium and Confederation, and "minor engagements by the opposing fleets occurred more and more often."

By this point you certainly had two distinct navies. The Solomani War doesn't begin until 990: that's plenty of time to evolve divergent naval structures.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old August 6th, 2019, 08:09 AM
mike wightman's Avatar
mike wightman mike wightman is offline
Noble
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 16,711
Gallery : 0
mike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizenmike wightman Respected Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garnfellow View Post
Come on, Mike -- "concrete proof"? I love Dark Nebula, I think the system names alone beat any region of Charted Space for sheer inspiration. But its canonical authority is not exactly unimpeachable. The best one can say about the boardgame's relationship to the OTU is "it hasn't been decanonized yet." For starters, when and where is DN set? If you could establish it was set in a specific area of Charted Space at any time between 1002 and 1120, I would be 100% with you.
The events of Dark Nebula definitely take place within the OTU - it is right there in the timeline in MT IE in the form of the Aslan Border wars.
My explanation is that within the Dark Nebula is a T5 reality manipulation device left over from a culture that long predates the Ancients

And yes - it is a tenuous link at best - why are the Solomani forces called Solomani Confederation about two millennia before that particular organisation rises to prominence?

But - it does show the Solies did build cruiser squadrons, just like they do in TA9. There is also evidence for the Solomani Confederation building cruisers in DGP'S Solomani and Aslan.


Quote:
Keep in mind, the Mongoose writers were following the lead of MJD's T20 work. And that's an important point.
I don't think they gave two hoots to MJDs work in early MgT.

Quote:
You might not like the decisions, and you might have good and defensible reasons for your preferences, but it's not fair to claim that the Mongoose writers failed to conduct basic research here.
I could write a book on the difference between established canon pre-MgT and the MgT ATU. Suffice to say the early works were written by people who had little to no setting knowledge - by their own and others admission.
Quote:
I can't speak to all of the Mongoose books, but a careful reading of the MGT Solomani Rim supplement and the Solomani alien module shows that the authors certainly put the work in. They very clearly tried to thoughtfully incorporate tricky bits of "forbidden canon" from DGP as well as relevant information from T20 and GURPS Traveller. I don't love all the decisions, but I haven't found any that were made due to sloppiness or wanton disregard of earlier work.
I can't fault the attention to detail or word count in MgT Solomani Rim.
Quote:
Nope. The Solomani reorganized themselves as the Confederation in 871, a "move . . . tantamount to declaring independence." By 908, following the ascension of Margret II, you see armed confrontation between the Imperium and Confederation, and "minor engagements by the opposing fleets occurred more and more often."
With Imperial equipment, shipyards etc. They then began building their own as detailed in TA9.

Quote:
By this point you certainly had two distinct navies. The Solomani War doesn't begin until 990: that's plenty of time to evolve divergent naval structures.
They would and did diverge. I agree.

Despite the way its coming across I actually like the fluff about building less cruisers (I just wondered where it was mentioned) - what is the same size as a cruiser and much more useful in an offensive war? Battle Riders.

The Solomani Confederation making preparations for a swift reconquest of Solomani territory would be able to offset the Imperial TL advantage by having lots of riders and a large fleet of tenders that can ferry both Solomani regular forces and conscripted polity forces quickly across the border.

Battleships and the like have the flexibility to bug out, battleriders area take it or lose proposition - which to my mind would fit the Solie psyche of the era.

Rats and Cats actually has this little quote:
Quote:
we have found the construction and maintainance of a large. effective fleet to be an incredible expense - especially give our tendency to build large ships of the line such as carriers, battle-ships, and heavy cruisers.
and then there is what TA9 has to say on the matter:
Quote:
CRUISERS Intermediate sized vessels in the 10,000-80,000 ton range, cruisers are versatile vessels capable of inflicting significant damage on larger ships, while at the same time able to meet a wide variety of demands – independent patrolling, deep strike, missile, escort and interdiction.
The Solomani Navy employs Heavy Cruisers for escorting capital units and Strike Cruisers for fast devastating strikes behind enemy lines or in surprise attacks. High-jump capability Deep Strike Cruisers are designed for long-range penetration of enemy territory attacking commerce, enemy bases and depots, and other targets of opportunity. Deep Strike Cruisers will invariably be escorted by Deep Strike Destroyers with similar jump performance. Light Cruisers are designed for multi-purpose roles including escorting larger cruisers, carriers and support vessels as well as independent commerce raiding and light strike missions.
__________________
The beauty of CT LBB1-3 is that the ref is free to make such decisions for themselves.

Last edited by mike wightman; August 18th, 2019 at 07:55 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old August 6th, 2019, 11:11 AM
Condottiere Condottiere is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,625
Gallery : 0
Condottiere Citizen++Condottiere Citizen++Condottiere Citizen++Condottiere Citizen++
Default

And for all practical purposes, the Confederation lost, sheer attrition and the recall of the frontier fleets convincing the Imperium to settle for what they had, rather than risk facing fresh units.

I'm pretty sure that the way the current Confederation Navy is configured, they are building up their line of battle formations in order to force early decisive actions, since you build capital ships before a conflict, with two kay tonne vessels acting as reconnaissance, communications, patrol, raiding, and possibly anti aerospacecraft defence ships.

If you assume that the aesthetic chosen for ship design in The Fighting Ships of the Solomani Confederation wasn't an accident, then continuing on with the Empire doctrine of maintaining massive star destroyers, supported by minor combatants, is a logical extension.

My suspicion is that Confederalized major and intermediate combatants from member world navies will be used to fill the cruiser gap.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old August 6th, 2019, 06:06 PM
Kilgs Kilgs is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Midwest America
Posts: 1,116
Gallery : 0
Visit Kilgs's Blog
Kilgs Citizen++Kilgs Citizen++Kilgs Citizen++Kilgs Citizen++
Default

Let us please return to the regularly scheduled topic... ;-)
__________________
"What's the point of watching out for assassins?" Floyt grouched. "The underhanded bastards are always sneaking up on us anyways."
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New Mongoose Traveller Product Reach Adventure 2: Theories of Everything MongooseMatt TAS News Feed 1 May 11th, 2016 11:25 AM
5 scientific theories that help explain santa Spinward Scout Random Static 0 December 24th, 2010 11:21 PM
Radical Jumpspace Theories Sifu Blackirish Imperial Research Station 8 August 5th, 2005 07:17 PM

This website and its contents are copyright ©2010- Far Future Enterprises. All rights reserved. Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises .
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright (c) 2010-2013, Far Future Enterprises. All Rights Reserved.