Traveller Store CotI Features New Posts Mark Forums Read Register


Go Back TravellerRPG.com > Citizens of the Imperium > General Traveller Discussions > Ship's Locker

Ship's Locker Submit your favorite original equipment and weapons for others to use in their own Traveller campaigns.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #71  
Old August 15th, 2019, 12:25 AM
Timerover51's Avatar
Timerover51 Timerover51 is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: North of Chicago
Posts: 6,567
Gallery : 4
Visit Timerover51's Blog
Timerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hiro View Post
Or really poor trigger discipline?
Probably really poor trigger discipline.

As for a combat load, assuming no powered combat armor and near-standard gravity, I will still say about 40 to 60 pounds, 20 to 20 kilograms, if you want to be able to fight at the end of a march. Select troops may be able to manage more, but I am thinking that average grunt.
__________________
Star Port Administrator: El Paso, El Paso, Sword Sub-sector, Piper-Norton Out Rim Sector
Link to Piper Sector: http://www.zarthani.net/ridder-mankind_to_the_stars.htm
Do you have a security clearance? New Jan 14 Blog Entry-Words to Die For
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElI451TxsTg, 3:24 in.
I march to my own set of bagpipes. Caution: This individual thinks that studying logistics is FUN.

They that go down to the sea in ships,
that do business in great waters;
These see the works of the LORD,
and his wonders in the deep.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old August 15th, 2019, 01:35 AM
hiro hiro is offline
Citizen: SOC-12
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 132
Gallery : 0
hiro Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
Probably really poor trigger discipline.

As for a combat load, assuming no powered combat armor and near-standard gravity, I will still say about 40 to 60 pounds, 20 to 20 kilograms, if you want to be able to fight at the end of a march. Select troops may be able to manage more, but I am thinking that average grunt.
I've read accounts of the Falklands War where after the long marches with stupid loads, they dropped the packs to fight, carrying only what they needed for the task at hand.

Sometimes in Traveller you'll see stats for Battle Dress battery(?) life but I don't think it crops up in all editions. Seems to me, without logistical support to recharge powered armour, it's not well suited to prolonged fighting. And, I'd guess it's pretty hard to know how long an engagement will be and what the down time will be before the next, war doesn't happen in shifts, you don't get to clock off.

As to how fatiguing combat armour would be? It's hand waved for the most part, I get that wearing something has less of an affect than carrying a similar weight in your arms or on your back but all the same, but it isn't practical to live 24/7 sealed in armour.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old August 15th, 2019, 01:55 AM
hiro hiro is offline
Citizen: SOC-12
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 132
Gallery : 0
hiro Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptRet View Post
the next big leap in infantry firepower will be the smart round. This is almost within reach now.
I'm not so sure it's near for small arms.

There's not a whole lot of space in a 5-8mm round.

A bullet designed to damage thru kinetic energy and get thru armour accelerates at a phenomenal rate. Having electronics that small that can endure the violence of being shot out of a barrel at 1000m/s+ is quite a feat.

Over typical ranges for infantry fighting with small arms, the flight time for a bullet is going to make larger course corrections difficult. Maybe you don't need large corrections but it's not going to be a "aiming is a thing of the past" solution.

Now, if we can make a shaped charge round small enough that might work. I think the numbers for current shaped charge rounds say that armour penetration is about 7-10 times the diameter of the round so a 10mm HEAT round might go thru 7-10cm of steel armour, not that people would be wearing steel so you need to work out how your armour of choice compares to steel.

But does the Munroe effect work when it's that small? A HEAT round would also be lower velocity - lower recoil and perhaps the flight time would make guidance more practical?

I think something that is perhaps closer in real life is point defence lasers. In Traveller, I don't see one being perched on the top of every suit of powered armour but I can definitely see them on top of a turret of AFVs supporting ground troops. Would they be able to engage multiple targets? I'd hope so!
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old August 15th, 2019, 02:37 AM
Timerover51's Avatar
Timerover51 Timerover51 is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: North of Chicago
Posts: 6,567
Gallery : 4
Visit Timerover51's Blog
Timerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hiro View Post
I'm not so sure it's near for small arms.

There's not a whole lot of space in a 5-8mm round.

A bullet designed to damage thru kinetic energy and get thru armour accelerates at a phenomenal rate. Having electronics that small that can endure the violence of being shot out of a barrel at 1000m/s+ is quite a feat.

Over typical ranges for infantry fighting with small arms, the flight time for a bullet is going to make larger course corrections difficult. Maybe you don't need large corrections but it's not going to be a "aiming is a thing of the past" solution.

Now, if we can make a shaped charge round small enough that might work. I think the numbers for current shaped charge rounds say that armour penetration is about 7-10 times the diameter of the round so a 10mm HEAT round might go thru 7-10cm of steel armour, not that people would be wearing steel so you need to work out how your armour of choice compares to steel.

But does the Munroe effect work when it's that small? A HEAT round would also be lower velocity - lower recoil and perhaps the flight time would make guidance more practical?

I think something that is perhaps closer in real life is point defence lasers. In Traveller, I don't see one being perched on the top of every suit of powered armour but I can definitely see them on top of a turret of AFVs supporting ground troops. Would they be able to engage multiple targets? I'd hope so!
For the full effect of the Munroe Effect, you need at least 6 caliber stand-off, which would be quite tough in a very small round. The 40mm grenade launcher round for the M203 for armor-piercing is rated at 25mm/1 inch, partly due to lack of stand-off, and partly because the charge is not that large compared to the weight of the round. In addition, you need a base-initiated charge for any shaped charge round, and for best results, one that is non-rotating. Have fun making it work.

The Germans played around with quite small shaped charge rounds in World War 2, but their performance was a tad lacking. By small, I mean 20 to 30mm.
__________________
Star Port Administrator: El Paso, El Paso, Sword Sub-sector, Piper-Norton Out Rim Sector
Link to Piper Sector: http://www.zarthani.net/ridder-mankind_to_the_stars.htm
Do you have a security clearance? New Jan 14 Blog Entry-Words to Die For
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElI451TxsTg, 3:24 in.
I march to my own set of bagpipes. Caution: This individual thinks that studying logistics is FUN.

They that go down to the sea in ships,
that do business in great waters;
These see the works of the LORD,
and his wonders in the deep.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old August 15th, 2019, 10:58 AM
hiro hiro is offline
Citizen: SOC-12
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 132
Gallery : 0
hiro Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
For the full effect of the Munroe Effect, you need at least 6 caliber stand-off, which would be quite tough in a very small round. The 40mm grenade launcher round for the M203 for armor-piercing is rated at 25mm/1 inch, partly due to lack of stand-off, and partly because the charge is not that large compared to the weight of the round. In addition, you need a base-initiated charge for any shaped charge round, and for best results, one that is non-rotating. Have fun making it work.

The Germans played around with quite small shaped charge rounds in World War 2, but their performance was a tad lacking. By small, I mean 20 to 30mm.
That's good to know, thanks.

At the end of the day, we each choose the hand waves we're most comfortable with to make the universe we want to play in. Small arm shaped charge rounds might be one of mine

I tweaked BTRC's 3G3 to design the ones I liked - as TL went up, smallest caliber went down, obviously with less explosive. Makes an interesting contrast, I could get higher damage, lower recoil but shorter range compared to APDS rounds. HEAP makes for good assault weapons, APDS is better to reach out and touch someone.
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old August 16th, 2019, 07:54 PM
CaptRet CaptRet is offline
Citizen: SOC-12
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 206
Gallery : 0
CaptRet Citizen+CaptRet Citizen+
Default

I attach a link to a 2015 Popular Military article regarding US Army's developing of a 40mm "smart round" for the M320 grenade launcher (an underbarrel attachment for the combat rifle). Also a link to the Wikipedia article regarding the XM25 Counter Defilade Target Engagement (CDTE) system (aka The Punisher), which fires "smart" 25mm grenades. And a link to China's attempts to develop a smart grenade launcher attachment for their next generation rilfe. As I said before, smart small arms ammunition is coming. (And it always bothered me that Traveler's ACRs have shoot-through grenades, a technology developed in WW 1 and used through the Korean conflict, vice under-barrel grenade launchers. Heck, even back in the 1970s when I was a Butter Bar we had the M-203.)

https://popularmilitary.com/army-dev...mart-grenades/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM25_CDTE

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/bu...soldiers-41052
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old August 16th, 2019, 11:15 PM
hiro hiro is offline
Citizen: SOC-12
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 132
Gallery : 0
hiro Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptRet View Post
I attach a link to a 2015 Popular Military article regarding US Army's developing of a 40mm "smart round" for the M320 grenade launcher (an underbarrel attachment for the combat rifle). Also a link to the Wikipedia article regarding the XM25 Counter Defilade Target Engagement (CDTE) system (aka The Punisher), which fires "smart" 25mm grenades. And a link to China's attempts to develop a smart grenade launcher attachment for their next generation rilfe. As I said before, smart small arms ammunition is coming. (And it always bothered me that Traveler's ACRs have shoot-through grenades, a technology developed in WW 1 and used through the Korean conflict, vice under-barrel grenade launchers. Heck, even back in the 1970s when I was a Butter Bar we had the M-203.)

https://popularmilitary.com/army-dev...mart-grenades/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM25_CDTE

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/bu...soldiers-41052
Fair enough. Not sure I'd call 25mm or 40mm small arms but certainly man carried tho the load out isn't going to be many.

It's not strictly speaking guided either, tho we didn't agree terms on what "smart" meant. A laser rangefinder sets the fuse to detonate the round over the target and as the Wiki article on the XM25 states: "The program was officially terminated on 24 July 2018". I think it was considered a failure but you got to start somewhere.

Going back to SF/Traveller, I think a laser point defence will make mince meat out of these.

The reference to shoot thru grenades is indeed seriously dated, I don't think I've used that term for them since I first played back in the 80s and have always envisioned them as either 30-40mm single shot under barrel add-ons or smaller caliber magazine fed, like the M41A from Aliens which I've seen referred to as 30mm but as it's based on a shotgun, it's 18mm!
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old August 16th, 2019, 11:51 PM
Timerover51's Avatar
Timerover51 Timerover51 is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: North of Chicago
Posts: 6,567
Gallery : 4
Visit Timerover51's Blog
Timerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved Citizen
Default

Having read some of the articles put out by National Interest, I have grave doubts as to the competency of the writers on matters military.

As for "smart" grenade rounds, stop and think a minute about what has to go into one of them. I will be long buried before one appears, and then the cost per round is going to be prohibitive if a reliable one is actually developed.
__________________
Star Port Administrator: El Paso, El Paso, Sword Sub-sector, Piper-Norton Out Rim Sector
Link to Piper Sector: http://www.zarthani.net/ridder-mankind_to_the_stars.htm
Do you have a security clearance? New Jan 14 Blog Entry-Words to Die For
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElI451TxsTg, 3:24 in.
I march to my own set of bagpipes. Caution: This individual thinks that studying logistics is FUN.

They that go down to the sea in ships,
that do business in great waters;
These see the works of the LORD,
and his wonders in the deep.
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old August 17th, 2019, 12:18 AM
wellis wellis is offline
Citizen: SOC-12
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Walnut
Posts: 378
Gallery : 0
wellis Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by timerover51 View Post
Having read some of the articles put out by National Interest, I have grave doubts as to the competency of the writers on matters military.

As for "smart" grenade rounds, stop and think a minute about what has to go into one of them. I will be long buried before one appears, and then the cost per round is going to be prohibitive if a reliable one is actually developed.
Not as bad as you think. For example, guidance systems for normal artillery shells are becoming much, much cheaper.

Granted artillery shells are easier to JDAM enhance than small arms or grenades but stuff like the Raytheon Pike are real and can be fired from underbarrel grenade launchers.
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old August 17th, 2019, 12:39 AM
Timerover51's Avatar
Timerover51 Timerover51 is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: North of Chicago
Posts: 6,567
Gallery : 4
Visit Timerover51's Blog
Timerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved CitizenTimerover51 Beloved Citizen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wellis View Post
Not as bad as you think. For example, guidance systems for normal artillery shells are becoming much, much cheaper.

Granted artillery shells are easier to JDAM enhance than small arms or grenades but stuff like the Raytheon Pike are real and can be fired from underbarrel grenade launchers.
I notice that no mention of cost is included, and it has yet to find a buyer, which means that what Raytheon considers "affordable" and what a buyer considers "affordable" are two different things. Also, 15 seconds is forever in a firefight. Is your target going to be there 15 seconds after launch? And as it requires a laser designator, that would need to be included in the cost, and then you have to have the designator where it can communicate to the firing units. Is the designator aimed at the same target as the firing unit? How long before the designator becomes the prime target to head by the opposition?
__________________
Star Port Administrator: El Paso, El Paso, Sword Sub-sector, Piper-Norton Out Rim Sector
Link to Piper Sector: http://www.zarthani.net/ridder-mankind_to_the_stars.htm
Do you have a security clearance? New Jan 14 Blog Entry-Words to Die For
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElI451TxsTg, 3:24 in.
I march to my own set of bagpipes. Caution: This individual thinks that studying logistics is FUN.

They that go down to the sea in ships,
that do business in great waters;
These see the works of the LORD,
and his wonders in the deep.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Postage rates skyth Imperial Interstellar Scout Service 19 May 19th, 2009 03:08 AM
Combat - Auto Fire Question CosmicGamer Mongoose Traveller 3 June 18th, 2008 04:06 AM
Real Full Auto Fire? MrMorden T20 - Traveller for the D20 System 15 February 24th, 2006 03:59 PM
Help with Full-Auto Suppressive Fire Linwood T20 - Traveller for the D20 System 4 April 7th, 2003 07:20 PM

This website and its contents are copyright ©2010- Far Future Enterprises. All rights reserved. Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises .
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright (c) 2010-2013, Far Future Enterprises. All Rights Reserved.