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The Fleet Ship designs, strategies, and tactics.

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  #1  
Old September 3rd, 2006, 07:44 AM
veltyen veltyen is offline
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Translating the RAN into Traveller

Why the RAN?
It is small enough to model effectively, with only 8 or so current ship classes, and only 1 or 2 new designs projected for the near future. Something like the USN or Russian Navy would be somewhat of a mamoth task, and anything smaller would only be a vessel or two and not really give any insight.

How is this useful for Traveller?
Australia roughly translates to a Pop 7 planet with decent but not cutting edge tech level.

Current RAN fleet
Naval
14 Frigates (2 classes)
14 Patrol Boats (2 classes)
6 Submarines
Technical
6 Minehunters
2 Ocean Survey Vessels
4 Coastal Survey Vessels
Transport
2 Heavy Amphibious Transports
1 Heavy Transport
6 Landing Craft
Supply
1 tanker
1 mixed supply
Ones I've missed
Several, probably

So which are jump capable?
I've made that distinction partly on whether the vessels are truely ocean going, and partly on size.

So how big are they?
Arbitrarily I've chosen to equate 5 tonnes to a dTon, mainly because the sizes it produces are manageable.

Conversion
Naval
</font>
  • 14 x Frigates
    Mixed 700 and 800 dTon Jump Ships
    Good Detection and Communication
    Mixed Weapons load</font>
  • 14 x Patrol SDB's
    Mixed 45 and 55 dTon System Patrol Boats</font>
  • 6 x Attack craft
    700 dTon Jump Ships
    Good Stealth and Detection</font>
The line between frigates and the submarines blurs to some extent. The role is still different, the frigate is a generalist craft, the Attack craft (submarines) are a more dedicated ship attack vehicle.

Technical
</font>
  • 6 Engineering and Recovery Vessels (minesweepers)
    150 dTon Jump Ship</font>
  • 2 Space Survey Vessels
    500 dTon Science Jump Ship</font>
  • 4 System Survey Boat
    60 dTon system boat</font>
Minesweepers aren't really a Traveller thing. I was thinking in this case the vessel may be more of a system defense repair/supply/maintenance vessel.

Transport
</font>
  • 2 Heavy Amphibious Transports
    Streamlined 1800 dTon transport Jump ship
    Capacity 400 Troops and Vehicles
    Capable of atmospheric landing</font>
  • 1 Heavy Transport
    1200dTon Jump ship
    Capacity: 18 MBT + 400 troops</font>
  • 6 Landing Craft
    60 dTon Interface landing craft
    36 dTon Carrying Capacity</font>
Supply
</font>
  • 1 tanker
    8000 dTon Fuel Tender Jump Ship</font>
  • 1 mixed supply
    3600 dTon Mixed Tender Jump Ship</font>
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  #2  
Old September 3rd, 2006, 08:53 AM
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The Oz The Oz is offline
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Interesting concept. I would like to know how much such a fleet would cost, and whether the "planet" Australia could afford it.
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Old September 3rd, 2006, 11:10 AM
veltyen veltyen is offline
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Proabably, though it would have to be quite high TL to do so easily.

Australia spends 2% GDP on its military, though that is also Army, Air Force, Science Corp and everything else that sits under that umbrella.

2% isn't a bad figure in general, most nations spend approximately that, with some notable exceptions getting up to 4% or more. A lot (read nearly all) goes into soft spending, salaries and supplies in other words. Absolute spending on purchasing vessels would be a quite small poportion.

Crew is an oddity. While the role and weaponry can be matched, Traveller vessels (I'm doing test designs under T20) have far fewer crew then the equivalent wet navy. Case in point, the Anzac frigate, as a wet ship has about 150 crew, as a 800 dTon traveller vessel has a crew of 15 or so.

Aproximate costs: (TL13 - T20 design)
500 MCr Frigate + Attack Craft (20)
50 MCr Patrol Boats + Landing Boats + Survey Boats (24)
100 MCr Engineering Vessels (6)
400 MCr Survey Vessels (2)
1 GCr Troop Transports (including sub vessels)(3)
4 GCr Tanker (1)
2 GCR Mixed Tender (1)

Total Cost
22 GCr or so.

So, assuming that a ship has a 40 year lifespan, a TL13 Pop 7 planet needs a capital purchase of 0.5 GCr/year to have an equivalent fleet to above.

If half a billion credits is less then 0.2% of GDP for such a planet then it is very beleivable. Cosidering that is between 5 and 50 Cr per person per year I think it is likely to be beleiveable.

Anyone know how to calculate the GDP of a planet?
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Old September 3rd, 2006, 11:21 AM
veltyen veltyen is offline
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In hidsight one displacement tonne = 1 dTon might make a little more sense. It would fix the niggle I have with crew sizing.

For a small ship universe the above seems to fit. For a big ship universe 4000 dTon frigates and 40,000 dTon tankers may fit a little better. The patrol boats become SDB's in the 200-300 dTon range.

The cost, of course, is a lot higher though probably not linearly (I'd estimate about 3-4 times more).
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Old September 3rd, 2006, 02:33 PM
Antony Antony is offline
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Though perhaps of no relevance at all, if you assume the Anzac class frigates were needle configuration starships they would have a displacement of the order of 2,500 dt (3,600 real displacement tons), and between 7,000 and 8,000 dt if Cylinders
Needles seem best

This is done by putting their actual length into the formulas in FF&S1.

Using the same needle configuraton for the O H Perry (Adelaide) class frigates displacement is a little under 4,000 dt, interestingly the Adelaids "real" displacement is listed as 4,100 dt.

This also seems to work for the new Armidale class patrol boats which if assumed needle configuration starships end up with a displacement of around 270 dt, very close to the actual vessels "real" displacement.
This rough guide probably only applies to frigates,destroyers and small fry.

Incidently only 9 patrol boats appear to be incommission with a further 7 decommissioned.
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Old September 3rd, 2006, 09:27 PM
veltyen veltyen is offline
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Quote:
Incidently only 9 patrol boats appear to be incommission with a further 7 decommissioned.
I thought there were 12 currently active, of mixed fremantle and armidale designs, with a goal of having 14 all armidale class in the near future.

Thanks for the FFS calculations. I guess the larger scale does fit a little better.
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Old September 3rd, 2006, 10:53 PM
RainOfSteel RainOfSteel is offline
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veltyen,

What's the UWP of the planet in question that is "simulating" Australia?
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  #8  
Old September 4th, 2006, 01:06 AM
veltyen veltyen is offline
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Assuming an universe with a cutting edge TL of 15.

Factors that need to be addressed.

Isolation. Australia being an island and all, partly why I thought it might make an OK model to base a small semi-independent polities forces on. Land defence becomes less of an issue, as a wet navy can do a reasonable defence by itself.

Decent but not cutting edge tech. In some areas Australia is at the cutting edge, but there is a lack of infrastructure (ie. people) to cover any more then one or two areas in depth, hence a lower overall TL then what could be available.

Mostly defence focused, with only minor aspirations to force projection.

Environmentally arid with excellent natural resources.

Conventional first world politics and economy.

So a UWP would be
B-747-79?-D

Political rating I haven't put in place, partly because I don't have the table to hand. I think the rest are in the right order, but generating from memory, I could be way off [img]smile.gif[/img]

B class starport
7 size (earth-average)
4 Hydrography (slightly arid)
7 Atmosphere (Earthlike)
7 Population (10 million to 100 million)
9 Law level (restrictive)
? Political rating
D Tech level

Personally I feel that unless they effect GDP most of the stats aren't really that important.

As an Imperial Citizen state a majority of the capital ships would be IN auxillaries or even ships donated to the IN freehold, with only some of the vessels being truely colonial forces under command of the local authorities (the patrol boats and survey vessels mostly).

As an independent state all the vessels would be under central command.
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Old September 4th, 2006, 01:14 AM
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The US military budget for 2006 was about $442 billion.
Expenditures:
29% operations and maintenance
25% went to personnel (salaries, bonuses, (retirement?))
18% procurement (fuel, bullets, bombs, butter?)
16% research, development, testing and evaluation
9% new equipment (aircraft, ships, BMD, Stryker IAV's, etc.)
4% DOE Defense Activities (helping rid Russia of old nukes?)
3% military construction (new base buildings, etc.?)

(Note: rounded percentages exceed 100% - some overlap must exist)

I think Australia spent about $13 billion for it's military in the same year. If they spent an equal percentage on new equipment then they spent about $1.3 billion on new ships, tanks, aircraft, etc.

A potential conflict/problem of using Australia as a temple for a planet's military is that in our modern world Australia's military is interconnected to the Western powers and depends upon the US, the UK, Germany, etc. for most of it's R&D of new weapon systems. I doubt that Australia spends 16% of it's military budget on R&D like the US does but I think that a planet would spend a similar percentage of it's budget on R&D (or to procure advanced TL goods and training of personnel to use it).

Another point I would like to raise is the fact that in Traveller the military budget is split between the ground forces of the Army and the space based Navy. How does one decide how much goes to the Army and how much goes to the (system) Navy? It would be very difficult to have enough of an Army from a population of 20 million that could defend a world from invasion. By the same token even if one spent all 13 billion just for the Navy you can't buy enough to properly and completely defend the world from invasion considering the cost of ships capable of such. A problem I think.

IMO
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Old September 4th, 2006, 02:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by veltyen:

Anyone know how to calculate the GDP of a planet?
you could use my cheesy tool here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Gal24/

its more for kingdoms but you can adjust...

loosely based on this webpage here:
http://www.io.com/~sjohn/2space.htm

and here:
http://www.io.com/~sjohn/demog.htm

earths GDP which is roughly tech 6/7?
is about: 40-60 trillion or 9,000 per person

miltary spending is 1.2 trillion so
about 2%...
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