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The Fleet Ship designs, strategies, and tactics.

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  #21  
Old January 11th, 2007, 04:18 PM
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Aramis gets a skill check in library use [img]smile.gif[/img]

And, errrr, did I miss something or why is it about jump masking now ???
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  #22  
Old January 11th, 2007, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheEngineer:
And, errrr, did I miss something or why is it about jump masking now ???
TheEngineer,

Because if you know the duration of your jump beforehand, you can use that knowledge to avoid 100D limits and reduce the chance of jump masking.

Arguing for knowing jump duration prior to jump initiation is way to nibble away at jump masking and thus nibble away at GT which is incorrectly seen as the 'father' of jump masking.

There's another game being played here.


Have fun,
Bill
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  #23  
Old January 11th, 2007, 05:20 PM
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OK, I’ll play along.
I assume that “jump masking” refers to the fact that any ship in jump space which attempts to exit from jump within about 100 diameters of a major mass precipitates out of jump space at the 100 diameter limit. On that subject, the article on Jumpspace by Mark Miller in the JTAS No. 24 (which I quoted in my initial post) also states that:

Quote:
“The perturbing effects of gravity preclude a ship from exiting jump space within the same distance. When ships are directed to exit jump space within a gravity field, they are precipitated out of jump space at the edge of the field instead.”
That sounds clear to me. It appears to be a game mechanic designed to prevent a catastrophic misjump where a ship reenters normal space inside a planet or to allow a warship/weapon to appear too close to a world for the defenders to respond, but you will have to ask Mr. Miller what his intentions were.

Jump masking is also completely unrelated to this topic. To restate my premise:

Quote:
Have you ever had one of those moments when everything suddenly makes sense. I was re-reading the article on Jumpspace by Mark Miller in the JTAS No. 24 and thinking about all of the debate on the inaccuracy of Jumps given the Time uncertainty inherent in a Jump (if you don’t know WHEN you will emerge from a jump then you don’t know WHERE the target world will be when you emerge). Four sentences from the article caught my attention:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />“Jump takes 168 hours (+/- 10%) to complete. This time is related to the nature of the alternate space being traveled in, and to the energy applied. Where time is a variable in travel in normal space, energy consumption is a variable in alternate space; time is a constant.”

“The exact time of emergence is usually predicted by the ship’s computer and the bridge is well manned for the event.”
What if the time required for any particular Jump is a constant that is calculated just prior to the jump. The exact value for the constant “TIME” varies from 151.2 hours to 184.8 hours for all possible jumps (excluding misjumps), but the time for any particular jump is known with great precision. I find nothing in CT or the article to suggest that this is not exactly what Mr. Miller had in mind when he wrote the article.

With this understanding, virtually all of the controversy evaporates and peace is restored to the Imperium.
</font>[/QUOTE]
Quote:
I am still convinced that both the LENGTH and DURATION of a jump are determined prior to entering jump space. Just as the distance between the point of departure and the point of arrival will be different for every jump (both worlds are moving) so too the time spent in jump space will be different for every jump. The fact that the game requires a roll to determine the time does not, in itself, prove that the time is a variable and unknown quantity – it just proves that all jumps are not the exact same duration. The JTAS article clearly implies that a jump is a highly precise (if not well understood) process and it clearly states that time is a constant in jump space and the exact time a ship departs from jump space is known to the crew.

[EDIT] If the jump duration is known with the same precision as the jump distance (one part in ten billion), then the time error is a tiny fraction of a second. In fact, if the time error is one part in ten million (1000 times greater than the distance error) then the time window is still only 1 second. If the time error is one part in ten thousand (1 million times greater than the distance error) then the time window is only 1 minute. If the time error is one part in ten (1 billion times greater than the distance error) then the time window is 16.8 hours. It seems illogical to assume that jump distance is calculated with 1 billion times greater precision than jump duration without a VERY clear cannon reference to this fact.
What I have requested is as follows:

Quote:
Is there anything in any other published source which specifically contradicts this interpretation?

Unless someone can find a passage which EXPLICITLY states that the duration of a jump is unknown before a ship enters jump space, there is no reason to believe that the jump rules and description are broken.
With all due respect to your passion, Bill, and with complete disregard of the fate of GURPS Traveller, your statements that I am wrong are unsupported. To your statement “There is no indication in canon that jump duration is known before jump initiation.” I would point to every story reference of ships exiting jump space at the 100 diameter limit as one piece of evidence. The JTAS 24 clearly states that the exact time a ship departs from jump space is known to the crew. Where is there any evidence that the exact time a ship departs from jump space is NOT known before the jump?

At this point, the entire debate on the jump rules being broken appears to be based entirely on the fact that some people want it to be broken. WHERE’S THE BEEF? [img]smile.gif[/img]
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  #24  
Old January 11th, 2007, 05:37 PM
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TE:

Bill is under the mistaken assumption that GT is canonical to the rest of the OTU. And in his convincedness, is not being rational about the evidence otherwise.

It's not in canon anywhere until GT, and it's not in T20 which postdates GT. And Hunter ALSO asked MWM. Got a different answer. MWM isn't consistent. Big surprise... not.

I'm citing stuff in print in canonical rulesets. GT isn't one of those; it's an ATU.

Now, as to not being able to tell how long before hand; all that matters is not being able to change it after one knows. Canon speaks to neither.
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  #25  
Old January 11th, 2007, 05:53 PM
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Just throwing out a random suggestion, call it crazy....

but given that Marc is vaguely contactable, why not just ask him again (or more likely get robject to ask him, since he seems to be in reasonably regular communication with him about T5) and get a final answer from him? If he can make up his mind about it himself, that is (the fact that the designer of the game can't figure out a straight answer himself is really promising... ).

So pull together everything that's ever been said about the subject from all available sources (yes, even GT) and then ask him "so, what's the final verdict here". And that will hopefully end the matter without everyone tearing out eachothers throats.

Like I said, just a crazy idea...
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  #26  
Old January 11th, 2007, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Malenfant:
Like I said, just a crazy idea...
Bleeding heart pacifist. Whatever happened to "God, Guts and Glory"?
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  #27  
Old January 12th, 2007, 12:55 AM
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Hi !

[QUOTE}]
Jump masking is also completely unrelated to this topic.
[/QUOTE]
I think so, too [img]smile.gif[/img]

[QUOTE}]
Where is there any evidence that the exact time a ship departs from jump space is NOT known before the jump?
[QUOTE}]

Did You take a look at my last posts ?
So again (quote from Jumpsapce article):
[QUOTE}]
...
The duration of a jump is fixed at the
instant that jump begins, and depends on
the specific jump space entered, the
energy input into the system, and on
other factors. In most cases, jump will
last a week.
...
[QUOTE}]

Honestly I don't know how to express it more explicitly as the source does.

Regards,

TE

P.S.
Somehow this reminds me off a comedy video where Mr. Bush asks "Who is the new leader of China" and Mrs. Rice answers "Hu is the new leader of China !"...
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  #28  
Old January 12th, 2007, 06:55 AM
Andrew Boulton Andrew Boulton is offline
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I've always assumed the jump exit time wasn't known until an hour or so before you reenter real space, but I've seen nothing that says it isn't known as soon as you enter jump.
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  #29  
Old January 12th, 2007, 08:39 AM
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Ok - riddle me this:

Two ship within 2 km of each other, agree to jump at the same time for the same destination (system wise) and the same general ballpark of the jump destination (ie roughly the same patch of space within the star system).

Per the rules, unless they are both coordinating via one ship doing the plots for all ships, it is entirely possible for one ship to arrive 1 day sooner than the other. If the "conditions" of the jump are identical for both ships - why isn't the duration identical for both ships?
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  #30  
Old January 12th, 2007, 09:25 AM
Andrew Boulton Andrew Boulton is offline
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Slightly different input by the Astrogators, and different computers/software.
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