Traveller Store CotI Features New Posts Mark Forums Read Register


Go Back TravellerRPG.com > Citizens of the Imperium > 2300/2320AD > In My 2300 Universe

In My 2300 Universe Discussion of non-canon ideas for use in your 2300 Universe

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old September 3rd, 2007, 06:27 AM
general_tiu general_tiu is offline
Citizen: SOC-8
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 36
Gallery : 0
general_tiu Citizen
Default Canton in 2300 AD

Um, guys, I'm not actually that new to the 2300 Ad world, but I've never played the game because I don't have the money.

Question: was Canton in 2300 the present-day Republic of China?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old September 3rd, 2007, 08:28 AM
Waldemar Waldemar is offline
Citizen: SOC-10
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 71
Gallery : 0
Waldemar Citizen
Default Canton in 2300 AD

No, it is one of the three post- WWIII successor states to the People's Republic of China.

Manchuria is northern China, parts of Central Asia and parts of Siberia

Canton is southern China

China is a buffer state sandwhiched between them by the Yellow river

Last edited by Waldemar; August 31st, 2008 at 02:43 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old September 3rd, 2007, 07:03 PM
general_tiu general_tiu is offline
Citizen: SOC-8
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 36
Gallery : 0
general_tiu Citizen
Default

But then, they didn't mention how did Canton spring up. Besides, Taiwan wan't mentioned, and it was supposed to be included with Canton, right?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old September 4th, 2007, 03:44 AM
Dunryc Dunryc is offline
Citizen: SOC-9
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Germany
Posts: 51
Gallery : 0
Dunryc Citizen
Smile

Maybe the 2300/Twilight Timeline will help to clear things up:

1995 - WW III, The Twilight War, began.

1997 - Nuclear exchanges - a limited nuclear war between Russia, China, and the U.S.A.

...

2020 - Left alone once the USSR had retreated during the Twilight War, but supported by the Ukraine, Armenia declared itself a nation (carved out of Iran, Iraq, and Turkey), and absorbed the rest of the Caucasas. The Kurds likewise declared themselves a nation, incorporating parts of Iran, Iraq, and Syria.

2030 - The Indochina Action. Canton moved to occupy Indochina's oil fields, but was forced back by the French.

2038 - Kamchatka and the Pacific coast regions, ignored by Russia, declared their independence as the Far Eastern Republic.

2048 - Manchuria occupied part of Siberia claimed (but abandoned) by Russia, along the Amur River.

...

Please have a look here (Twilight War):

http://sewell_thomas.tripod.com/2300/index.html

...
In this world, Gorbechev died in the 1980s and the Soviet Union did not fall apart at the beginning of the last decade. Instead, the Soviet Union drifted into a war with China.
...
China was broken up by the Twilight War and eventually coalesced into three nations: Manchuria, Canton, and a remnant "China" between the Hwang He and Yangtze rivers. Manchuria is the most powerful of the three and the largest, including not only the traditional Manchurian provinces but the Area around Beijing, Inner Mongolia, Sinkiang, Tibet, and quite a large portion of the formerly Russian areas including Vladivostok. Manchuria is one of the leading powers in space as well. Canton is a lesser power but still dynamic. The remainder of old China has become a sleepy backwater.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old September 4th, 2007, 03:14 PM
Marchand Marchand is offline
Citizen: SOC-12
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Hinterworlds
Posts: 347
Gallery : 1
Marchand Citizen
Default

I'd be really interested in a Chinese person's view of 2300AD's China (or even all three of them). Is the scenario even remotely plausible? My guess: "not very". Much as I love the 2300 setting, some of the paring-down of big powers required to make a world where the likes of Britain and Germany are big-shots again is a bit hard to swallow. (And that writing as a proud Brit!)
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old September 4th, 2007, 08:01 PM
epicenter00's Avatar
epicenter00 epicenter00 is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 850
Gallery : 0
epicenter00 Citizen+epicenter00 Citizen+epicenter00 Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marchand View Post
I'd be really interested in a Chinese person's view of 2300AD's China (or even all three of them). Is the scenario even remotely plausible? My guess: "not very". Much as I love the 2300 setting, some of the paring-down of big powers required to make a world where the likes of Britain and Germany are big-shots again is a bit hard to swallow. (And that writing as a proud Brit!)
Hear hear. I agree wholeheartedly, Marchand. I'd like to read that as well.

If you look at the types of products GDW put out during its history, you can tell GDW's core designers had a fixation on the world around the age of European Colonialism. You had Space: 1889, Traveller was very much an Age of Sail game, even Twilight: 2000 had all sorts of nutters thinking they were various personalities from America around the same period and an (excessive in my opinion) emphasis on the re-emergence of black powder weaponry.

2300 was in many ways Space: 1889 with "futuristic" technology. A brief flip-through of Earth/Cybertech Sourcebook shows a definite slanting of the table towards recreating a world order roughly similar to Europe before World War 1. My friends and I have a number of theories on why this was, ranging from marketing to plain old Eurocentricism (it's not "racism" per se - have anyone from Canada read that section in the Earth/Cybertech Sourcebook and see if they don't shake their head or laugh out loud, it's really bad - it reads like an American social studies textbook from the 1970s). Either way, the trend is that non-historical non-European powers can garner power, but for whatever reason they seem to be content to be second place (or third, fourth, or ...) to the Western Europeans.

Africa somehow manages to still be marginalized and colonized in 2300. Africa (besides "good neighbor" Azania) does so little you can sum up the continent in a single sentence. Bad deal, GDW.

Sadly, besides some fantasy-driven "peace to the Mideast" view, the "arab" world doesn't really do much more than Africa.

South America strives mightily around the first missions to Alpha Centauri, enough to challenge the ESA when nobody else could. There's hints that Brazil and Argentina are heavily industrialized and modern nations in 2300 from looking at weapons listings and descriptions of the Rio Plata War. However, by 2300 they're marginalized again buying second- and third-hand starships to do their interstellar commerce and flying 100 year old warships. What the heck happened? I can accept that perhaps their sun has set and they're in the twilight of their power. So why is Western Europe still mighty throughout it all?

Asia's even worse. Most of it literally just sits there as a convenient battlefield for a cast of nations that sounds suspiciously like the hooligans in China around the time of the Boxer Rebellion (replacing the US with France). India is some strange feudal relic with lots of ministates somehow constantly fighting each other for 300 years while the rest of the world moves on. China splitting into three separate states, Manchuria fulfilling the role of the "Soviet Union of the East" (militarized, aggressive, but handily they're inferior technologically to Europe so you can be sure they'll be defeated by "our side"), while Canton and China seem to be like most nations and just seem to be content to sit there and do absolutely nothing for the next 300 years. Japan returns to its un-Democratic roots as a bunch of hostile militants - I suppose we should be glad that GDW didn't list Taiwan and Korea as Japanese colonies - the Philippines as part of Japan seems questionable enough to me (and I say that as a Japanese person myself), I mean, enough is enough GDW!
__________________
"... to be truly happy a man has to live absolutely in the present - no thought as what's gone before and no thought of what lies ahead. But a life of meaning, a man is condemned to wallow in the past and obsess about the future."
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old September 5th, 2007, 05:30 AM
mbrinkhues mbrinkhues is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,941
Gallery : 0
mbrinkhues Citizen
Default

Strange, last I looked at 2300AD:

+ Stellar expansion was based on who has Tantalium and who has not

+ Japan was a colonial power but no mention that it was along 1930s lines

+ Both Manchuria and Canton had colonies

+ At least on of the Arabian Nations had colonies/outposts

+ Azania was actually a mixed race/predominantly <insert PC term> nation, not Bore-Run South Africa

+ Quite a bit of the why/how Africa got short-handed again is quite logical within the timeline. How much of it could survive suddenly loosing all First World Imports?

+ South/Middle America actually is quite strong in space

====================

As for the rest, a game has to sell and most people don't care to play <insert obscure African nation> explorers in space. GDW had enough problems making the USA a second class power (resulting in stuff like Operation Overblown and Mission Arcturus)

Ironically 2320s one weak point with my group is the rise of America and the fall of the European nations - nobody here wants to play an Ami.
__________________
Engineers time estimate: The software will be done March 15th, 11:14:36.... What do you mean \"what year\"?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old September 5th, 2007, 09:32 AM
Plankowner's Avatar
Plankowner Plankowner is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kansas
Posts: 963
Gallery : 0
Plankowner Citizen
Default

I always considered Canton to be the Commercial parts of China, including Taiwan and Hong Kong. Manchuria was the Military part of China and "China" was the left over parts...

In my version of 2300, I broke up the USA even further, creating a new nation of Pacifica, consisting of Northern California, Oregon, Washington, British Columbia, Yukon and Alaska with parts of Idaho, Montana and Nevada (basically everything west of the Continental Divide). Texas included Oklahoma and there was an independent "Deseret" formerly Utah. French Quebec was also independent, but the rest of the US and Canada were now one country. I gave the Canadian Colonies to Pacifica and allied them with Manchuria, that fractionalization of the old US and Canada greatly reduced the power in the American Arm.

I increased the tensions in the European Arm, thus reducing the size of their colonies a bit and made the Chinese Arm the dominate space region.
__________________
Plankowner
Baron of East Hasserston, Lunion, Spinward Marches
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old September 5th, 2007, 09:40 AM
epicenter00's Avatar
epicenter00 epicenter00 is offline
Citizen: SOC-13
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 850
Gallery : 0
epicenter00 Citizen+epicenter00 Citizen+epicenter00 Citizen+
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrinkhues View Post
Strange, last I looked at 2300AD:

+ Stellar expansion was based on who has Tantalium and who has not
Not quite. That's pointed out when it's convenient to the 2300 writers but glossed over otherwise. To my knowledge, most nations in Europe don't have large Tantalum deposits. No, people who really want it have to be getting it from somewhere else ... perhaps through this thing called trade? If the Europeans can do it, why can't anyone else?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrinkhues View Post
+ Japan was a colonial power but no mention that it was along 1930s lines
There's a mention in the Earth/Cybertech sourcebook that the Japanese return to the "old" values of absolute obedience, veneration of the Emperor, and strong re-armament following the Twilight War. These are certainly the kind of values that came in force in 1930s Japan. The Japanese annexing the Philippines seems like a bit of a stretch to me. Certainly, stranger things have happened in history (like ask someone in the 1930s if Germany and France could be such strong partners in a single organization like the EU and people probably couldn't imagine it) but that part's always been a stretch to me. Perhaps something like an Economic Federation (no jokes about Greater Co-Prosperity Spheres, please) but not outright annexation. It's obvious that GDW's "The Game" had a lot more do with the boardgame "Risk" than anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrinkhues View Post
+ Both Manchuria and Canton had colonies
They do, but they're certain second fiddle to the Europeans. The Manchus in particular are continually referred to as technologically backwards and poor and their colonies not well supported compared to (you guessed it) those of France and (and your favorite, mbrinkhues ) Bavarians. A single sub-state of Germany being able to fund a colonies better than Manchuria? I find that a little to Eurocentric for my tastes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrinkhues View Post
+ At least on of the Arabian Nations had colonies/outposts
Arabia has one on the Eber world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrinkhues View Post
+ Azania was actually a mixed race/predominantly <insert PC term> nation, not Bore-Run South Africa
Ah, I didn't say it was run by Boers. Just that they seemed to be the only African nation that had done anything besides be the possession of some European power or an unimportant backwater and only because they play ball with the Europeans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrinkhues View Post
+ Quite a bit of the why/how Africa got short-handed again is quite logical within the timeline. How much of it could survive suddenly loosing all First World Imports?
Things would be tough in Africa, yet perhaps without the meddling of the First World bringing out the very worst in human nature they finally might be able to sort things out. Azania (depending on how badly it was savaged during the Twilight War - I'd imagine not as severely as Eurasia or North America) could have reindustrialized early, then spread out to develop the rest of Africa to help exploit the minerals there and to create markets for goods close to home. This would have led to a "brain drain" as much of Africa's best and brightest move to Azania, but a sufficient number might move back to start developing things in their home countries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrinkhues View Post
+ South/Middle America actually is quite strong in space
If they're so strong, where are all the modern South/Middle American products? They seem to be a reasonable leader in laser weaponry, but exactly how long are these guys going to continue using those destroyers they made to challenge the ESA? Look at ships they're using in the Star Cruiser scenarios and for how long.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrinkhues View Post
As for the rest, a game has to sell and most people don't care to play <insert obscure African nation> explorers in space. GDW had enough problems making the USA a second class power (resulting in stuff like Operation Overblown and Mission Arcturus)

Ironically 2320s one weak point with my group is the rise of America and the fall of the European nations - nobody here wants to play an Ami.
That's most certainly true. They're writing for their market, ironically. One of the reasons why 2300 probably didn't sell was that GDW's primary market was the US and Americans didn't like playing second fiddle. 2320 sort of fixes that (by making the Kafer War sort of like WW1/WW2) at the cost of alienating European gamers (who tend to be quite loyal and less fickle that the ones here). Apologies to Colin, but that sort of falls into the same historical trap that 2300 did.

Personally, I'd liked to have seen a more cosmopolitan world in 2300 instead of a rehash of European history. The entire tone of the Colonial Atlas is that the Frontier worlds are rough and tumble, but of course, with the triumph of European technology and power, conditions in the French Arm aren't as terrible as those primitives in the Chinese Arm or those bumblers in that dead end American Arm with their multitude of marginal planets and nearly failed colonies.

Indeed, a great way to make the future sound more like the future is have your "Bokamba-Mercer" and "Weyland-Yutani" corporations. The emphasis could have still been on the French/American Arms, but mention of how Manchu or Brazilian colonies were so much better off could have changed the entire tone of the game without overshadowing things.
__________________
"... to be truly happy a man has to live absolutely in the present - no thought as what's gone before and no thought of what lies ahead. But a life of meaning, a man is condemned to wallow in the past and obsess about the future."

Last edited by epicenter00; September 5th, 2007 at 09:46 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old September 5th, 2007, 12:44 PM
mbrinkhues mbrinkhues is offline
Citizen: SOC-14
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,941
Gallery : 0
mbrinkhues Citizen
Default

The Bavarians are explained quite easily: The rest of Germany hoped that by funding them colonies we would finally get rid of them

The books often make it quite clear that Tantalium is the make or brake element. And that some of the European nations only have it due to their ESA membership.
__________________
Engineers time estimate: The software will be done March 15th, 11:14:36.... What do you mean \"what year\"?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2300 ... 2320 ... 2300... Supplement Four 2300AD & 2320 16 July 14th, 2007 05:36 PM
Traveller 2300 VS 2300 AD Havocatalyst 2300AD & 2320 7 November 26th, 2006 02:18 AM
Trav 2300 combat vs. 2300 AD combat kaladorn 2300AD & 2320 5 January 27th, 2004 06:43 AM
Just what is 2300 AD? RocketTurtle 2300AD & 2320 4 December 10th, 2002 03:52 AM

This website and its contents are copyright ©2010- Far Future Enterprises. All rights reserved. Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises .
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright (c) 2010-2013, Far Future Enterprises. All Rights Reserved.