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MegaTraveller Discuss of the MegaTraveller ruleset and the Rebellion Milieu

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  #41  
Old December 31st, 2011, 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
"What? Last turn I could comfortably hit him and now, just because he moved 3 meters, I have a snowball's chance in hell to even scratch him? That's BS!"
Ah, I see. Well, sauce for the goose (the same will be true for their return fusion gun fire). And your PC's could use Pinpoint fire and the Tactics point pool to nail the sucker.hopefully that could allow them to think more tactically and maintain the immersion.

Do you often encounter these boundary problems? I usually find that encounters are either much closer (indoors) or further (outdoors) away, where the problem of the step-like range bands are not so evident.
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  #42  
Old December 31st, 2011, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Hyphen View Post
Ah, I see. Well, sauce for the goose (the same will be true for their return fusion gun fire). And your PC's could use Pinpoint fire and the Tactics point pool to nail the sucker.hopefully that could allow them to think more tactically and maintain the immersion.
No, you're still not seeing the problem. It's not that they are angry that they can't hit the enemy. It breaks immersion because it destroys suspension of disbelief. (I'm avoiding the term "unrealistic" here, but it would also be applicable if used properly.)

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Do you often encounter these boundary problems? I usually find that encounters are either much closer (indoors) or further (outdoors) away, where the problem of the step-like range bands are not so evident.
They are very much evident. In MegaTraveller, the difference between short and medium range can mean a task level in difficulty. So can the difference between medium and long range.
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  #43  
Old December 31st, 2011, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Tobias View Post

They are very much evident. In MegaTraveller, the difference between short and medium range can mean a task level in difficulty. So can the difference between medium and long range.
Those are also the ranges at which, in actual combat data, accuracy drops radically for persons not firing from braced positions. Not particularly unrealistic. The magnitude might be a bit steep... but really, accuracy drops sharply starting at 5-6m with pistols.

Similar breakpoints occurred in CT Bk1/4, in Striker, and more severely in TNE. And in every other game with discrete range bands I've played. (The ones that didn't usually had steady -X per Y distance - which is actually MORE unrealistic.)
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  #44  
Old December 31st, 2011, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
No, you're still not seeing the problem. It's not that they are angry that they can't hit the enemy. It breaks immersion because it destroys suspension of disbelief.
Ok, so it's more about the magnitude & abruptness of the shift. Sounds like you'ee after a more gradiated mechanism - I guess you could add in a few intermediary range bands to drop Diffs by -2 instead of -4 (since there must be _some_ mechanism to reduce accuracy).

Personally I hate the "inchworm" solutions yiu see in the TNE or d20 rulesets, but these may turn out to be more to the liking of yiur players.

Did you ever get together with your players and nut out a solution?
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  #45  
Old December 31st, 2011, 05:23 PM
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Those are also the ranges at which, in actual combat data, accuracy drops radically for persons not firing from braced positions. Not particularly unrealistic. The magnitude might be a bit steep... but really, accuracy drops sharply starting at 5-6m with pistols.
Based on my personal experience, this is nonsense. Which "combat data" are you referring to?
Implemented as it is in MegaTraveller, it is definitely nonsense, especially seeing how the situation is exactly the same with rifles.

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Similar breakpoints occurred in CT Bk1/4, in Striker,
LBB1/4, yes. Worse even in some cases. But as I explained elsewhere, I consider this system to be nearly unplayable anyway.
AHL/Striker, somewhat. Obviously not quite as bad since the breakpoints are smaller.
(Not that other system making the same mistakes makes it any better...)

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(The ones that didn't usually had steady -X per Y distance - which is actually MORE unrealistic.)
Seeing how this is basically the same, only with less granularity: How so?
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  #46  
Old December 31st, 2011, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyphen View Post
Ok, so it's more about the magnitude & abruptness of the shift. Sounds like you'ee after a more gradiated mechanism - I guess you could add in a few intermediary range bands to drop Diffs by -2 instead of -4 (since there must be _some_ mechanism to reduce accuracy).

Personally I hate the "inchworm" solutions yiu see in the TNE or d20 rulesets, but these may turn out to be more to the liking of yiur players.

Did you ever get together with your players and nut out a solution?
I just imposed one: I went back to using Striker/AHL and chopped the rangebands in half if needed. The system already has twice the granularity by itself. I like the AHL damage system better anyway. It worked well enough.
(Part of the appeal is that you don't have to do as much fiddling with the ranges in typical shipboard actions.)

For a new campaign, I've been toying with the idea of writing a new combat system integrating STRIKER with the task system, using the task/mishap steps for the damage roll, designing a MT-weapon type range table with 1-point steps and maybe a few more types, and incorporating the Margin of success into the damage roll, plus a few other ideas. But I didn't get around doing it yet, so I'll probably end up using STRIKER again, with a few modifications.
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  #47  
Old December 31st, 2011, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
Based on my personal experience, this is nonsense. Which "combat data" are you referring to?
FBI and US Army TraDoc (Training & Doctrine Command) published data on weapon accuracy, circa 1990.

Plus, the idiot neighbors shooting at me thinking I was someone else...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
Implemented as it is in MegaTraveller, it is definitely nonsense, especially seeing how the situation is exactly the same with rifles.


LBB1/4, yes. Worse even in some cases. But as I explained elsewhere, I consider this system to be nearly unplayable anyway.
AHL/Striker, somewhat. Obviously not quite as bad since the breakpoints are smaller.
The AHL breakpoint is a singular 3 point shift at a variable range by weapon.
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Count Terra (SOLO 1827)
Count Gorod (REFT 1302)
Count of the Third Imperium (SPIN 2232)
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IMTU ct+ tm++ tne tg-- tt+ tmo+ t4- t20+ to ru+ ge+ 3i+ c+ jt au ls pi+ ta he+ st+
Wil Hostman 0602 C539857-9 S A724
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  #48  
Old January 1st, 2012, 04:37 AM
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I've got to agree with Aramis - the chances to hit in MT are pretty realistic - if anything they are too easy and should go up in difficulty.

US law enforcement statistics give an 80% miss chance with firearms in a confrontation, and I believe a german study of rifle fire effectiveness demonstrated close to a 90% miss rate under battlefield conditions.

Sniper fire now is a totally different matter - but then in MT this is represented really well by taking a lot more time over the task (shot).

Gun range targets don't shoot back.
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  #49  
Old January 1st, 2012, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by mike wightman View Post
I've got to agree with Aramis - the chances to hit in MT are pretty realistic - if anything they are too easy and should go up in difficulty.
If you think this is about the overall level of difficulty then I suggest you go back and read my previous posts again.
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  #50  
Old January 1st, 2012, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by aramis View Post
FBI and US Army TraDoc (Training & Doctrine Command) published data on weapon accuracy, circa 1990.
Where?

Quote:
The AHL breakpoint is a singular 3 point shift at a variable range by weapon.
Umm... no? It's two 2-point shifts, same as STRIKER.
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