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MegaTraveller Discuss of the MegaTraveller ruleset and the Rebellion Milieu

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  #131  
Old September 24th, 2017, 11:12 PM
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I found Traveller through MegaTraveller, but as I learned more about the background, I couldn't believe that the Imperium would get trashed solely for the sake of a rules revision.

Turns out that my belief was completely unnecessary and that's exactly what happened.

Other than the trashing of a great setting, and a few rules we skipped, I kinda liked MegaTraveller, just don't mention the Rebellion.
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  #132  
Old September 25th, 2017, 12:37 PM
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Robject, great summary from what I remember. I have some perspective on some of the cons that might add to the discussion:

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2. Rules got in the way; their complexity overall was an unreasonable barrier to use.
I think most referees default to a menu mindset - I'll take this part of the rules that I like and leave the others that I don't like. Maybe the problem with MT wasn't the complexity exactly but the lack of a menu or options. It was difficult to take out the parts we liked and the whole wasn't palatable to many of us.

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3. Extreme measures taken with setting actually damaged playability.
I couldn't agree more. The CT era was one of constant building. With every publication the setting became richer and I grew to like it more. Seeing that great thing being broken, even figuratively, was difficult. At first I ignored the rebellion in favor of CT's Golden Age setting but later I played in the Wounded Colossus setting that IIRC was created by Don M.

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8. The new jump fuel formula.
Not just the jump fuel formula, but also the enormous power plants required to build any agility into a design. Also, the tremendous amount of fuel required by the enormous power plants. These combinations made it mostly impossible to recreate CT ships unless the construction TL was bumped up to 15 and even at 15 there were problems.

Note that these rules changes would have been okay if the setting was different. But if you are going to steer the CT setting off in a new direction (off a cliff may be a better phrase) then you should make portability of CT stuff into the new rules a priority.
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  #133  
Old September 25th, 2017, 02:57 PM
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I want to expand on:
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9. "The total lack of anything for players to do." [Mike Wightman]
CT had adventures, double adventures, boxed adventures, amber zones in JTAS. Plenty of stuff for PCs to get involved in - I still use a lot of them today.

MT had Knightfall - which introduces the Primordials - so the folks at GDW didn't mind them back then (I still maintain you can have the Primordials, the baddies from the core scenario of sorts and the Empress Wave).

Until Hard Times most of the setting was metaplot wars, hence my comment about nothing for players to do; Hard Times was when MT got the setting right for PCs IMHO
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  #134  
Old September 25th, 2017, 03:24 PM
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Thanks Mike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Wightman
CT had adventures...
You're right - I noticed that as well and wondered at the lack of adventures for MT.

Thanks Major B.

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I think most referees default to a menu mindset - I'll take this part of the rules that I like and leave the others that I don't like. Maybe the problem with MT wasn't the complexity exactly but the lack of a menu or options. It was difficult to take out the parts we liked and the whole wasn't palatable to many of us.
(bolding mine)

Yes. We need safe paths into a new, complex system. Many become discouraged by seeing the Wall of Complexity. Traveller5's Core Rules.

My summary was that wargamers made MT. Typically, I believe wargamers have their own terminology and shorthand, and understand one another well. But non-wargamers don't speak that language natively.
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  #135  
Old September 25th, 2017, 05:33 PM
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MT had adventures...
The Flaming Eye
Knightfall
Arrival Vengeance

Technically. Hard Times.

and about every third issue of challenge, and every issue of Traveller Digest.
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  #136  
Old September 26th, 2017, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robject View Post
Thanks Mike.



You're right - I noticed that as well and wondered at the lack of adventures for MT.

Thanks Major B.

(bolding mine)

Yes. We need safe paths into a new, complex system. Many become discouraged by seeing the Wall of Complexity. Traveller5's Core Rules.

My summary was that wargamers made MT. Typically, I believe wargamers have their own terminology and shorthand, and understand one another well. But non-wargamers don't speak that language natively.
Oddly I came to a completely opposite conclusion. As a wargamer, I felt that DGP had no wargaming bent at all - quite the contrary. The adventures they played weren't military-oriented Traveller at all. And when they tried (like that TD adventure where they fought over an Imperial depot it was a kludge with the wacky buzz bomb).

Now MT itself certainly had large dollops of Striker through it - but again, I think it showed that DGP weren't really wargamers because they made a hash of what they included and didn't include from Striker.
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  #137  
Old September 26th, 2017, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
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Oddly I came to a completely opposite conclusion. As a wargamer, I felt that DGP had no wargaming bent at all - quite the contrary. The adventures they played weren't military-oriented Traveller at all. And when they tried (like that TD adventure where they fought over an Imperial depot it was a kludge with the wacky buzz bomb).

Now MT itself certainly had large dollops of Striker through it - but again, I think it showed that DGP weren't really wargamers because they made a hash of what they included and didn't include from Striker.
OK, now there's a data point I can use. I could replace "wargamer" with "gearhead". I had imagined that gearhead descended from wargamer. But I suspect you're right: the Keiths were wargamers, and Marc was a wargamer, but DGP were Traveller fans.
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  #138  
Old September 26th, 2017, 02:20 PM
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DGP didn't understand starships either.

They completely missed the change to jump fuel usage introduced in HG79/80 and then included in the 81 revision.
(In 77 CT and MT all jump fuel is used regardless of jump distance, so a jump 3 ship jumping 1 parsec still uses up 30% of its hull as fuel, HG79 introduced the jump governor and HG80 just changed the fuel use paradigm to 10% per parsec jump regardless of jump engine rating, so out jump 3 ship jumping 1 parsec now uses 10% of its hull as fuel, this was also used in 81 revised CT).
They also didn't understand the importance of agility and the ship combat system in MT is possibly the worse one to ever see print.
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  #139  
Old September 26th, 2017, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robject View Post
OK, now there's a data point I can use. I could replace "wargamer" with "gearhead". I had imagined that gearhead descended from wargamer. But I suspect you're right: the Keiths were wargamers, and Marc was a wargamer, but DGP were Traveller fans.
The personal combat mechanics are brilliant - mostly because, by separating Pen and Damage, they allowed conglomerate units without forcing all units to be the same size. Same for vehicles...

what the botched was ship combat, quite badly; the lack of newtonian motion...
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  #140  
Old October 2nd, 2017, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
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And when they tried (like that TD adventure where they fought over an Imperial depot it was a kludge with the wacky buzz bomb).
That adventures was written by someone with a firm grounding in wargames.
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