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  #21  
Old March 25th, 2013, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by aramis View Post
a 1000 TD can exceed 75% under bk 5
Thanks Wil, I've changed the figure from 70% to 80%.


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  #22  
Old March 26th, 2013, 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Fritz_Brown View Post
First thing I have to correct is this notion. That is patently untrue. Anyone who can see a horizon (yes, at sea is clearer, we get that) can work out that the world is round. It didn't take sailors to know this, much less by sailing "around the world."
From what I remember of history, a Greek philosopher calculated the diameter of the Earth within 10% in sometime BC. He observed the behavior of sunshine in deep wells.

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  #23  
Old March 26th, 2013, 11:50 AM
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My statement about Columbus was intended to point toward the attitude of the culture at the time. I’m well aware his voyage was more about the trade and economics otherwise the Queen of Spain wouldn’t have hocked the family jewels. Such attitudes can hinder exploration especial since those advising the King saw his ideas about the planet as utter nonsense.

I should have made myself clearer at the beginning of this thread. Basically I want to discuss early space travel when the only Jump Drive you have is a Jump 1.

Fuel Scoops and Purification Plants allow you to harvest fuel from any environment containing Hydrogen; the issue is ships without this equipment, where do they get their fuel from? Yes, I’m aware you can just dump water in the fuel tanks and let your power plant do the cracking. But there are dangers involved in doing this. Early traders and explorers might do this but they run the risk of damaging their ships.

There is also a technical point here as well. Isn’t using water similar to using Diesel in a gasoline engine? Most early cultures are not going to have the ability to us water in their power plants since they designed them to run on pure hydrogen. That is a later development along with fuel scoops and purification plants.

This brings me back to the point I was making about trading in hostile territory, even if you can separate hydrogen from the environment, it would be a specialized piece of equipment. It would take time for this device to crack the hydrogen fuel needed for your ship and that could get you killed.

Traveller setting is based mature stellar culture. Everything you need to travel the stars is there without such concerns. I’m just trying to figure out how they got there…
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  #24  
Old March 26th, 2013, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Rigel Stardin View Post
I should have made myself clearer at the beginning of this thread. Basically I want to discuss early space travel when the only Jump Drive you have is a Jump 1.
If you don't know how to make jumps into empty space and don't have neighboring systems one parsec away, then you have a problem. But it's a problem that has nothing whatsoever to do with fuel capacity. If you're on a main, you can go four parsecs out and still have enough fuel to return without refuelling.

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Fuel Scoops and Purification Plants allow you to harvest fuel from any environment containing Hydrogen; the issue is ships without this equipment, where do they get their fuel from? Yes, I’m aware you can just dump water in the fuel tanks and let your power plant do the cracking. But there are dangers involved in doing this. Early traders and explorers might do this but they run the risk of damaging their ships.
Just make sure you have a fuel purifier plant aboard your ship and it'sw not a problem.

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There is also a technical point here as well. Isn’t using water similar to using Diesel in a gasoline engine? Most early cultures are not going to have the ability to us water in their power plants since they designed them to run on pure hydrogen. That is a later development along with fuel scoops and purification plants.
You don't use the water directly. You run current through it and separate out the hydrogen. The oxygen is discarded. That gives you unrefined fuel. Run it through a fuel purifier and you get refined fuel.

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This brings me back to the point I was making about trading in hostile territory, even if you can separate hydrogen from the environment, it would be a specialized piece of equipment. It would take time for this device to crack the hydrogen fuel needed for your ship and that could get you killed.
Assuming the enemy is able to guard every source of fuel in his system (an extremely unlikely assumption), you simply keep enough extra fuel aboard to make a jump to some fuel source the enemy isn't camping.


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  #25  
Old March 26th, 2013, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rigel Stardin View Post
I should have made myself clearer at the beginning of this thread. Basically I want to discuss early space travel when the only Jump Drive you have is a Jump 1.
The design rules will let you easily work this problem. Referring to canon ships designed 1000's of years after this phase doesn't really buy you much.

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This brings me back to the point I was making about trading in hostile territory, even if you can separate hydrogen from the environment, it would be a specialized piece of equipment. It would take time for this device to crack the hydrogen fuel needed for your ship and that could get you killed.
Then don't do that. If you're going someplace where there's no fuel, bring fuel with you. If your ship can't carry enough, build a new one that can.

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Traveller setting is based mature stellar culture. Everything you need to travel the stars is there without such concerns. I’m just trying to figure out how they got there…
They got there by taking chances. They got there by preparing for their journeys up front and using specialized equipment. They explored the low hanging fruit of star systems that have Gas Giants in place for refueling. If they encountered a gap they could not cross, then they made the gap crossable by caching fuel in the dead spots along the way and making several trips back and forth.

And if they jumped in to a dead spot expecting to find their previous cache, but instead couldn't find it at all, or found it had failed, then -- they died a slow, cold death playing canasta until they ran out of supplies or their power plant failed.

That early "Frontier" "exploration" stuff was dangerous for a reason.
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  #26  
Old March 26th, 2013, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DangerousThing View Post
I think I like the concept, but I don't get the numbers.
Sorry, should have stated my reasoning more clearly. (I'll blame lack of sleep, even if it isn't true. )

I started with the 10% base for Jump-1, then added 2 * each added Jump (as CosmicGamer wrote).
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  #27  
Old March 26th, 2013, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by HiverLord View Post
Sorry, should have stated my reasoning more clearly. (I'll blame lack of sleep, even if it isn't true. )

I started with the 10% base for Jump-1, then added 2 * each added Jump (as CosmicGamer wrote).
for comparison... mt uses
j1 10%
j2 15%
j3 20%
j4 25%
j5 30%
j6 35%

I have been known to use those in T20 and TNE...
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  #28  
Old March 26th, 2013, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
for comparison... mt uses
j1 10%
j2 15%
j3 20%
j4 25%
j5 30%
j6 35%

I have been known to use those in T20 and TNE...
The reply below is general and directed at all those looking for magic fuel. I just used this quote because it was an easy example. (But really, why screw up CT when you can just play MT?)

That sure blows away a major hurdle for High Guard fleets. This way you can get those J4 ships along with everything else.

I think I would rather see J2-3 fleets and preserve the time delay Traveller originally built into the system.

This tinkering with fuel requirement also allows for fewer types of ships to round out a Fleet for HG & TCS. I like the challenge of building a Fleet that works in proper harmony than building a "Starship Enterprise" that can do it all by itself.

As for merchant traffic it would be a breeze to amass a fortune in no time by speculative trade. The "right" market would be within reach nearly all the time.

Sarcasm now begins:

If we go this route we will take a page from the Japanese Merchant Marine. The difference will be in replacing their "Maru" with "Munchkin".

One thing I've always liked about Traveller is the subtle way it defeats the "I want it all" syndrome.

But, if we are going to do this, I want Armor that stops any weapon you have and a weapon that always hits the first time and does just exactly the damage I want at the time.

Never mind...I just discovered my very own pocket universe and its full of Phlebotinum, Unobtainium, and, of course, Handwavium in unlimited quantities...

I guess we all want to be TWO PLUS tech levels ahead of everyone else.

Note the heavy sarcasm before the flame war begins...
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  #29  
Old March 26th, 2013, 11:25 PM
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Well, I use the reduced fuel rates because it makes HG designed merchantmen actually able to turn a profit at book rates for J2 at TL 9, without having to go to per parsec pricing.

YMMV, but I don't build my ATU's around warships (and in fact consider such as a stupid idea), but around what allows shipping to happen profitably and changes in the texture of the starmaps.
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  #30  
Old March 26th, 2013, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aramis View Post
...J2 at TL 9...
My HG (Drive Table p23) doesn't allow J2 until TL 11

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...without having to go to per parsec pricing...
Per parsec pricing always made more sense to me. Why am I going to pay vastly more for a ship and go broke hauling 3 parsecs at once for the same fee I'll get hauling 1 parsec? Better to haul three times for three fees in a much less expensive ship.

BTW, I'm currently very much enjoying a TL 9 J1 maximum game now. Can be a real challenge!
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